2,000 Greater & Lesser Mysteries/2,000 Greater and Lesser Mysteries.iso/ufo/aav/mys02113.txt

Internet Message Format | 1994-06-10 | 1.0 MB

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From: [e-mail] (Adrian Jenkin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 01:01:00
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In a message dated 20 Jan 93  00:02:27, [e-mail] wrote:

 N>   Deeper, more complex, more thought-provoking philosophy; funnier
 N>   humor, more suspenseful suspense ('cause you don't know how it's
 N>   going to turn out), better production values, wittier dialogue,
 N>   etc.  What did you THINK I meant by "better"?   No matter what
 N>   quality you think a TV show offers, for either intellectual
 N>   stimulation or "entertainment" I can probably find a book,
 N>   movie, lecture, or some participatory activity (game, hobby,
 N>   sport, discussion, etc) that offers better.

Yes and worse, Television can not hope to cope with the complexities which can
be presented by with written word.  It has to be presented via a visual medium
where as a book is visualised by the mind.

This is not a fault of telivision, just a limitation.


 N>    But today TV's choices are just as artificial; whereas in 1960
 N>    the only black faces TV showed were train porters or cooks,
 N>    today TV goes out of it's way to ensure that every group of
 N>    people: every office scene, starship crew, classroom, etc,
 N>    is carefully populated with as much ethnic and gender diversity
 N>    as they can manage, always making sure that women are given
 N>    non-stereotyped roles for females (security officers) and
 N>    blacks are given non-stereotyped roles for blacks (scientists,
 N>    engineers, etc).   This is not an improvement, it's just more
 N>    artifice.

 N>    And it provides the viewer with the false sense of satisfaction
 N>    that he, or TV, is confronting these issues.   I've literally
 N>    heard people say things like, "I'm not racist, I watch the Bill
 N>    Cosby show".
 N>

Yes, but racism is a strange thing, everyone is racist in some way.
Racism in it's simplest form is a product of a person's prejudices and a
person's prejudices are what we all judge things by and make our inital
responses in reflection of.  It is just a case of learning and letting our
prejudices be altered (hopefully for the better).

As for blacks and so on in stories I remember reading a book by Arthur C.
Clarke which involved a tourist bus (of sorts) which was trapped in a crater
that had opened up beneath it on the moon (I think the title had the words by
Earthlight - or Moonlight in it somewhere).

There were two main male characters and they were talking when one asked the
other how he felt about his Aboriginal (Australian Aboriginal) heritage.

This shook me quite a bit in that I had not realised that this character was
black!  This is how I feel it should be, that we take people as they are and
don't bring colour into it at all.

That includes accusing Star Trek of adding token nationalities because you feel
it is politically correct!!

Later people,

Adrian Jenkin


 * Origin: The Deep Woods BBS [phone] (3:800/873)

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From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: New University - Call for Faculty and Students
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>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
>> VISIONARY PHYSICIST, DR. JACK SARFATTI, APPOINTED TO SCIENCE BOARD OF WORLD
>> UNIVERSITY
>>

What I want to know is: where did Dr. Sarfatti get his PhD, under whom, when,
and in what?  Did he create his own university (note, his "press release" was
from himself)?

I want to know, so I can avoid sending any of my students there.

--
James A. Foster                           [e-mail]
Universty of Idaho                        Dept. of Computer Science
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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Subject: re: Nasty Remarks
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Topic 279:  Mad Scientists II
# 12: Epigone of Koestler (rcl)      Mon, Sep 14, '92  (17:58)
16 lines

Praising Sarfatti in front of his face certainly won't alter his
character for better or worse, so let me say this. He strikes me
as one of those unusual American originals, The Existential Hero.
Such people don't often exist outside the fiction of Hemingway or
Mailer. Perhaps Sarfatti has drunk deeply of the Mailerian spring.
Whatever drew him into this way of life, the fact remains that
he's obeying Nietzsche's maxim, live dangerously; and he's
pursuing Whitehead's ideal of the Adventure of Ideas. This he is
doing not as an insensate sleepwalker, but fully conscious and
aware of the dangers he runs and the glories he might gain.

Too bad that some blockheads among us writhe with envy at the
spectacle of a gifted soul aiming at stardom, and who spit gall
rather than applaud a trapeze artist flying high, netless, over
marble.


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From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
Subject: Re: How To Contact Good Type UFO.
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: JW So there you have it folks. There's more to come on this later. Stay tuned.
: Source of Information:January 26, 1993 Examiner. page 4.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sorry john, no offense intended, but I (and many others, I might add) just
don't take tabloids for an ounce of truth.  Is there any better proof, other
than the supermarket tabloid?  Have there been any serious books on it?  Not
flaming here, just curious...I'm sure most would agree that a tabloid paper
isn't world-renouned for accuracy, much less truth.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Fisher  ><>     |  "Thank you.  You can't believe everything you
[e-mail]   |  see and hear, can you?" - Hendrix, 'EXP'
________________________________________________________________________________
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From: [e-mail] (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Nasty Remarks
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes modestly of himself:
>Too bad that some blockheads among us writhe with envy at the
>spectacle of a gifted soul aiming at stardom, and who spit gall
>rather than applaud a trapeze artist flying high, netless, over
>marble.

    *SPLAT*
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From: [e-mail] (Brad Kepley)
Subject: Re: How To Contact Good Type UFO.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:
>: JW So there you have it folks. There's more to come on this later. Stay tuned.
>: Source of Information:January 26, 1993 Examiner. page 4.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Sorry john, no offense intended, but I (and many others, I might add) just
>don't take tabloids for an ounce of truth.  Is there any better proof, other
>than the supermarket tabloid?  Have there been any serious books on it?  Not
>flaming here, just curious...I'm sure most would agree that a tabloid paper
>isn't world-renouned for accuracy, much less truth.
>--

That reminds me of a continuing disussion we had with a scientist (well,
that's what he called himself) who tended to buy whole hog, all the
weird stories....UFO's...men in black...crop circles...alien abductions...
brain implants...etc.  He kept quoting from his favorite book on the
subject(s).  Someone finally got a hold of the book and in the footnotes
the sources turned out to be things like The National Enquirer.
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From: [e-mail]
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Subject: UFO TV
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Dear Folks: I believe you will find that we have quite a few
TV shows on now that appeal to different people's interest. On
Wednesday night you have Unsolved Mysteries which talked about the
golden statue that was stolen from a man by Marcos. Next of the
same night we have Space Rangers (the pilot) which deals with a
secret form of energy that could control things (the show is very
brutal and crude but I like it). On thursday you have Star Trek
Deep Space 9 which last week was about a clone being made. On
Friday you have Sightings. Even on Key West (which I don't
especially care for), there was a discussionx as to why
we are here. If you ever find out the answer to that question tell
the world about it. John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
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Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
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Dear Folks: I enjoyed the quote from Buddha. I believe you will find
that he is one of the good guys (Great White Brotherhood).
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government coverups
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (sorgatz) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>>>    Why? Let me put it this way. People will suddenly realise that all we
>>>>are are just little specks of dust when considering the universe. We're not
>>>>very advanced in our space travel or our defenses, so when we hear about
>>>>UFOs,
>>
>>Technically, I am not sure the statement "we have _no_ defenses against UFOs
>>_whatsoever_" is meaningful. Is a misidentified balloon really a threat to
>>all? Perhaps it would be better to substitute -alien spaceship- for UFO.
>>
>
> The real issue is one of CONTROL. As it is government is losing control,
>the populace is beginning resent being treated as government-wealth slaughter!

"government-wealth slaughter"??? Was is das?

> Should it become know that Planet Earth is just a dinky back-world, and that
>the zero-sum game here is a hoax, there would be a few billion people here
>screaming for blood...namely the blood of those in government that have kept
>us toiling away at the drivel of ordinary life while secret technology could
>have freed us 50 years ago...think about it.

OK...

Having given it a bit of thought, I disagee. There is plenty of food grown
to feed the peoples of the world. The problems are not technical, but problems
of economics [if a farmer gives all his crops away, he cannot farm next year],
political, and social [food sent to Somalia and Ethiopia was often stolen
in route]. There has been plenty of technological advance, it takes time to
use it.

BTW, the USSR had a long history of bloody revolution. I did not notice that
the masses did better becuase of it. Revolution -is- war, with all of it's
negative aspects, plus a few.

>                                              If this is the case, the truth
>may NEVER come out! ;-(  It may very well be for such reasons that the whole
>issue is shunned by the military, look at their stake in this silly game:

Conspiracy theories never die, which is not a validation per se.

> Control of the population via the tools of war. Total control.

The Catholic church controlled the masses without the tools of war for
quite a few years. Of course, once they got them, they got rid of those
pesky witches and undesirables.

> But what if, And it is a what-if situation, there exists technology that can
>provide limitless energy at a fraction of the cost of our current systems? A
>new medical technology that can render death obsolete? Food production means
>that could feed 10x our population? And the list never stops! What if..?

Energy cost is not a limiting factor yet. And our problems are just beginning
the moment death is -rendered obsolete-. The food production means are already
existant (see above).

What if these things (as you envision them) have unexpected side effects?
The creation of a utiopia requires more than just materials production.

> One very likely outcome of such a scenario is that people would simply stop
>going to work, stop going to school (as we now know it..) stop paying their
>TAXES?!! (Oh Dear!) Stop taking advice from assholes like Jerry Fallwell and
>Co....Oh my GHOD! People might even begin to think FOR THEMSELVES!

Yes, we need alien technology to solve our own problems. How you think
alien technology will solve stupidity, or lifelong religious training is
beyond me. But these are not technological problems.

> ...I can see it now:
>
>EBE: "..<thru translation>..but we gave the technology to your governments 50
>     years ago? You mean they..?
>
>EARTHMAN: "Yep..the bastards just SAT ON IT! That's why we had to kill them
>            all and start over! Politicians are a worthless lot you know..."

I cannot recall a time when it was not a known fact that "Politicians are a
worthless lot", perhaps your recollection predates mine.


>-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
>TTI([e-mail])                       *   Think Eco, not EGO!   *
>3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
>(OPINIONS EXPRESSED DO NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF CITICORP OR ITS MANAGEMENT!)


Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Alin-Andrei Carsteanu)
Subject: Re: Paranormal
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davies) writes:
>
>The book "The Fringes of Reason" has a pretty good chapter on spontaneous
>combustion.  The basic conclusion was (body fat) + (cloth) + (spark) = (candle),
>i.e. a dead person with a lit cigarette lying on a rug would keep smoldering
>until all of their body fat was consumed, so that when they were discovered
>later there would just be a pile of ashes on a burnt carpet.

Cases known also include LIVING persons, of which some survived. Try to
spontaneously burn someone's fat... Har!
Then again, you can argue about hair... hair burns... maybe one's hair
was burning and somehow inflicted burns on other parts os his body?
I would rather be cautious before jumping the conclusions.
    Alin

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From: [e-mail] (Marketta Pajula)
Subject: Re: UFO TV
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[e-mail] wrote:
: Dear Folks: I believe you will find that we have quite a few
: TV shows on now that appeal to different people's interest. On
: Wednesday night you have Unsolved Mysteries which talked about the
: golden statue that was stolen from a man by Marcos. Next of the
: same night we have Space Rangers (the pilot) which deals with a
: secret form of energy that could control things (the show is very
: brutal and crude but I like it). On thursday you have Star Trek
: Deep Space 9 which last week was about a clone being made. On
: Friday you have Sightings. Even on Key West (which I don't
: especially care for), there was a discussionx as to why
: we are here. If you ever find out the answer to that question tell
: the world about it. John Winston.
Perhaps we are here to find out why we are here.

Olli Pajula.

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From: [e-mail] (John L. Scott)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
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Scott Erb writes (in article <[e-mail]>):
  Some of the shows really blow me away with the power of their message, as

  did the first Deep Space Nine episode which dealt with a powerful
emotional
  theme, the nature of time, and a bit tension and drama.

J. Giles responds (in article <[e-mail]>):

  That was one of the most comical sequences I've ever encountered.  These
  alians conduct a discussion with the human character in an ordered
sequence
  of topics, inferences, etc. and yet claim to be ignorant of the nature of
  time.  If they can conduct an ordered interview, they know of time.

Not only that, but the aliens debate among themselves as to whether they
should destroy the human character.  Why would aliens who do not exist in
linear time need to debate what they are *going to do*?  Why would they
worry about what *might* happen if they let the guy live if the past,
future and present are all the same to them?  What the hell would an
individual's "destruction" mean to such beings anyway?  The writers could
not even deal with the most immediate consequences of their premise.  The
whole thing was just silly.

--John Scott
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: How To Contact Good Type UFO.
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Brad Kepley ([e-mail]) wrote:

: That reminds me of a continuing disussion we had with a scientist (well,
: that's what he called himself) who tended to buy whole hog, all the
: weird stories....UFO's...men in black...crop circles...alien abductions...
: brain implants...etc.  He kept quoting from his favorite book on the
: subject(s).  Someone finally got a hold of the book and in the footnotes
: the sources turned out to be things like The National Enquirer.

Interestingly enough, I saw a special about the crop circles on PBS a couple
of weeks ago.  I don't believe the UFO theory, but I'll be damned if I can
think of an explanation.

Not that I'm losing sleep over it, mind you... ;)
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"It is your resistance to 'what is' that causes your suffering."   -- Buddha
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
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Tom Randolph ([e-mail]) wrote:

: I have some small reason to believe that [e-mail] is no more
: than someone's AI project. Try sending mail and see what happens. All I got
: was more random mailings of over-capitalized drivel. Yo, "McElwaine", anything
: to say to disprove this?

Isn't there a program out there somewhere that generates random bits of
trash like this?
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"It is your resistance to 'what is' that causes your suffering."   -- Buddha
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Epstein [415])
Subject: re: Nasty Remarks
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Organization: Bell Laboratories
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 21:57:52 GMT
Lines: 60

|>
|> Topic 279:  Mad Scientists II
|> # 12: Epigone of Koestler (rcl)      Mon, Sep 14, '92  (17:58)
|> 16 lines
|>
|> Praising Sarfatti in front of his face certainly won't alter his
|> character for better or worse, so let me say this. He strikes me
|> as one of those unusual American originals, The Existential Hero.
|> Such people don't often exist outside the fiction of Hemingway or
|> Mailer. Perhaps Sarfatti has drunk deeply of the Mailerian spring.
|> Whatever drew him into this way of life, the fact remains that
|> he's obeying Nietzsche's maxim, live dangerously; and he's
|> pursuing Whitehead's ideal of the Adventure of Ideas. This he is
|> doing not as an insensate sleepwalker, but fully conscious and
|> aware of the dangers he runs and the glories he might gain.
|>
|> Too bad that some blockheads among us writhe with envy at the
|> spectacle of a gifted soul aiming at stardom, and who spit gall
|> rather than applaud a trapeze artist flying high, netless, over
|> marble.
|>
|>

Such self-aggrandizement is so refreshing.  I'm not altogether
sure, but I think I found the origional post of the above:

                --- Begin inclusion ---

Topic 279:  Mad Scientists II
# 13: Syrup of Epikak (barf)      Mon, Sep 14, '92  (17:58)
17 lines

Scorning Sarfatti in front of his face certainly won't alter his
character for better or worse, so let me say this. He strikes me
as one of those mundane insufferables, The Self-proclaimed Hero.
Such people don't often exist outside the fiction of American
sit-coms. Perhaps Sarfatti has drunk deeply of the wrong wine jug.
Whatever drew him into this way of life, the fact remains that
he's heard P.T. Barnum's maxim, There's a sucker born every
minute; and he's interpreting the Adventure of Ideas to be a
three-ring circus. This he is doing not as an insensate sleep-
walker, but (all the more tragic for him) fully conscious and
aware of the truth from which he runs. This he does thinking there
are glories he might gain.

One would have to be a blockhead to feel any sort of envy, seeing
the spectacle of a tormented soul aiming at stardom: one who is
bound to fall, like a drugged trapeze artist; flying high, netless,
over marble.

                 --- End inclusion ---



Tom Epstein
AT&T Bell Laboratories
Allentown, PA. USA

The above posting does not represent the opinion of my employers
who (I expect) have no idea who Sarfatti is or claims to be.
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: New University - Call for Faculty and Students
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 17:26:20 GMT
Lines: 9

Interesting that the headline didn't have anything to do with the "press
release", which was (for the most part) composed entirely of unintelligible
gibberish.

And why the hell post this garbage all over the net?
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"It is your resistance to 'what is' that causes your suffering."   -- Buddha
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Erb)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: psci22.polisci.umn.edu
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 23:37:44 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John L. Scott) writes:

>Scott Erb writes (in article <[e-mail]>):
>  Some of the shows really blow me away with the power of their message, as

>  did the first Deep Space Nine episode which dealt with a powerful
>emotional
>  theme, the nature of time, and a bit tension and drama.

>J. Giles responds (in article <[e-mail]>):

>  That was one of the most comical sequences I've ever encountered.  These
>  alians conduct a discussion with the human character in an ordered
>sequence
>  of topics, inferences, etc. and yet claim to be ignorant of the nature of
>  time.  If they can conduct an ordered interview, they know of time.

>Not only that, but the aliens debate among themselves as to whether they
>should destroy the human character.  Why would aliens who do not exist in
>linear time need to debate what they are *going to do*?  Why would they
>worry about what *might* happen if they let the guy live if the past,
>future and present are all the same to them?  What the hell would an
>individual's "destruction" mean to such beings anyway?  The writers could
>not even deal with the most immediate consequences of their premise.  The
>whole thing was just silly.

I think you guys missed the point, or else you don't have the imaginative
skills to take what MUST BE PRESENTED IN LINEAR TIME (since we are watching
TV afterall) and re-interpreting it in a manner that thinks about the
philosophical and even spiritual implications of that message.  This
requires a non-linear intuitive effort, which our culture defines as
unrealistic because it's unquanitifiable and unprovable (or unfalsifiable).
In other words, OF COURSE TV has to put it in that manner, that's all we're
capable of perceiving.  How could anyone talk about non-linear time in our
dimension and with our psychological attitude towards time without using
linear terms.  Our imagination and intuition is the only potential door
between the limitations of this limited three dimensional existence and
something that might be beyond that.  Perhaps nothing's beyond that, I don't
know.  Either way, it seems logical that reality is probably more than what
our limited senses can perceive, and perhaps imagination is the key to
explore that.  If you watch TV to get a linear story and judge it along
those lines, then you won't be a Star Trek fan.  You have to suspend your
disbelief, play with concepts and ideas, and do some of your own imaginative
work rather than simply accepting what the TV tells you!  I think some of
these criticisms of ST:NG, and TV in general are rather narrow minded.  I've
tried to refrain from the insulting manner that others have used, but part
of being intelligent is to unite mind and imagination.  If you just judge
things mentally in terms of known concepts and relations, you can be a fine
technician but you'll do little to expand the boundaries of human knowledge.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13749 alt.alien.visitors:13017 sci.skeptic:37567
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From: [e-mail] (Brad Kepley)
Subject: Re: How To Contact Good Type UFO.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Adm)
Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 00:59:01 GMT
Lines: 70

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:
>Brad Kepley ([e-mail]) wrote:
>
>: That reminds me of a continuing disussion we had with a scientist (well,
>: that's what he called himself) who tended to buy whole hog, all the
>: weird stories....UFO's...men in black...crop circles...alien abductions...
>: brain implants...etc.  He kept quoting from his favorite book on the
>: subject(s).  Someone finally got a hold of the book and in the footnotes
>: the sources turned out to be things like The National Enquirer.
>
>Interestingly enough, I saw a special about the crop circles on PBS a couple
>of weeks ago.  I don't believe the UFO theory, but I'll be damned if I can
>think of an explanation.
>
>Not that I'm losing sleep over it, mind you... ;)

It must have been a pretty old tape.  The scientists who originally
started the study of the phenomena solved the problem several months
ago when they managed to catch the perpetrators in the act on film.
It was just some local teenagers, and they satisfied the researchers
that they had been doing it all along.  That's what they reported in
the local newspaper here...on an inside page of course.
















































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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: UFO TV
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 01:14:10 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.scrub.project
Summary: realization, calling, new age, purpose in life, etc. stuff
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
...>  there was a discussionx as to why
> we are here. If you ever find out the answer to that question tell
> the world about it. John Winston.

i know what our purpose in life is. instead of being a nuiscence
to our neighbors and friends in a particular small geographical
circle, we can now annoyu people on a global scale without leaving
the house! just think of the possibilities!
there, i told the world.

nudge, nudge, rib, erib:-)

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 17:46:43 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: Please don't hold me responsible for what my computer
says after I quite typing.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: Nasty Remarks
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: California State University Sacramento
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 02:12:45 GMT
Lines: 51

In article <[e-mail]>
    [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
>
>Topic 279:  Mad Scientists II
># 12: Epigone of Koestler (rcl)      Mon, Sep 14, '92  (17:58)
>16 lines
>
>Praising Sarfatti in front of his face certainly won't alter his
>character for better or worse, so let me say this. He strikes me
>as one of those unusual American originals, The Existential Hero.
>Such people don't often exist outside the fiction of Hemingway or
>Mailer. Perhaps Sarfatti has drunk deeply of the Mailerian spring.
>Whatever drew him into this way of life, the fact remains that
>he's obeying Nietzsche's maxim, live dangerously; and he's
>pursuing Whitehead's ideal of the Adventure of Ideas. This he is
>doing not as an insensate sleepwalker, but fully conscious and
>aware of the dangers he runs and the glories he might gain.

Anyone who refuses to speak about himself in anything but the
third person, cross-posts to eight groups, sidles himself up next
to Mailer, Nietzsche and Whitehead, and thinks of himself as both
a mad scientist and The Existential Hero, strikes me as not only
as egotistical and self-important, but rather a bore.

A good friend of mine stated that most men don't mature until at
least 35 years. Mr. Sarfatti, you have a long way to go. Do you
also drive a sports car and are you losing your hair?

>Too bad that some blockheads among us writhe with envy at the
>spectacle of a gifted soul aiming at stardom, and who spit gall
>rather than applaud a trapeze artist flying high, netless, over
>marble.

Like I said, buddy, it's not envy but boredom. If you stood up in a
crowded room at began raving about yourself in this manner, do you
believe your reception would be better than here? I don't know of
any true scholars who "aim at stardom", so why should anyone take
you seriously?

As for flying high, there's no argument about how high you're
flying, and I'm sure most of us would prefer you netless.

Another jerk into the \kill file...

Murray

--
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
[e-mail]       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: SHC.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 18:04:02 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Folks: Once while I was investigating SHC I asked some firemen
if they had ever heard of it. They denied it for about 2 times then
finally confessed that they were aware of it and it was covered in
their training.  It  happen quite a bit.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (~)
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Phil Newton)
Reply-To: don't
Organization: #
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 23:05:21 GMT
Lines: 23

Steve Lamont ([e-mail]) wrote:
: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:

[munch...munch...]


     TRAVEL  REPLACE  blind  faith.   TRAVEL  REPLACE  blind
faith.   Before  a physically dies trans-lates before a Per-
fect LIVING  Master  or  other  if  they  finally  WISE  UP!
Finally WISE UP!

     Other if they finally WISE UP!  A Perfect LIV-ING  Mas-
ter or other if they finally WISE UP!  REPLACE blind faith.

     Faith.

     Ject of a Perfect LIV-ING Master as SOUL TRAVEL REPLACE
blind faith.  Master or other if they finally WISE UP!  This
sub-ject of a Perfect  LIV--ING  Master  or  other  if  they
finally WISE UP!

--
)O>     [sig deleted]
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon surface: No ETs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 93 03:47:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 21


    [e-mail] (Daniel Oldham) writes:
    After watching the NASA tapes on the apollo missions to the
    moon there is one thing that really stands out. The surface of
    the moon has very little erosion and the impact craters are
    billions of years old. The tracks left by the astronauts will
    be there for millions of years and yet they did not see any
    evidents of other tracks.


... well, we have hardly explored even a minute fraction of the body,
this statement:

    This can lead to the conculsion that any ETs skipped over the
    moon or any landing marks have not been found.

... cannot be supported or denied...  If you were to pick any 6 spots
on the earth, and explore a tiny area around each for a short time,
would you know everything about it?

Charles
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From: guest@SCC-TERM1
Subject: Re: Dimensional Thought-Lab
Message-ID: <guest.155.0@SCC-TERM1>
Lines: 33
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Natinal Centeral University Computer Center, Taiwan, R.O.C
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 04:38:06 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
>Subject: Re: Dimensional Thought-Lab
>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 16:46:04 GMT
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Sullivan) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>,
>>> JS> FTL drives? Time travel? I believe them not impossible. So why not build
>>> JS> the damned things and see if they work?
>>>
>>>Hear, hear!  People have been literally trying to do so in their garages and
>>>barns and basements for some little while.  Have any succeeded?  Nothing but
>>>anecdotes to tantalize us.
>>>
>>>One nuclear engineer (specialty:  magnetic containment) in the NY area
>>>seems to have made some progress, but unfortunately he died when his house
>>>flew apart a few years back.
>>
>>Now think about this carefully.  What would you *expect* to happen if you
>>turned on an FTL drive in your basement?
>
>Not knowing anything about FTL drives, it is hard to expect anything.
>What would you expect? And why?
>
>>--
>>John Sullivan, Engineer/Computer Development.      Email: [e-mail]
>>Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA.                  Phone: [phone]
>
>
>Rich
>
>[e-mail]
>
>
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 7&^ IVO&^T
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jan 93 17:27:23 EDT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 21

>>D(&C^R(C% $XO%*P&^(O*% (O*&^% (&659765 (&^%(^%(*%^$I&$I&IR&^RFKFGKHGJF&I%^$RE
>>CI&^R CI&^RE I&^%$ CI&%^ CI^%I^&RKTDF(&)
>>:TY*T!Q&^%$*O&F*$^%"&^%$*^&%$YRT&^%X*^%Z*&$%^Z&$%*%^*^X%$X*^%$*




Obviously, we have been contacted by alien intelligence.  Now it's up to
us to figure out just what the message is, so that we can respond
appropriately.


                                -------------------------------------
                                ^    I don't do no drugs, man.      ^
   Jean Manes                   ^      I'm hooked on phonics.       ^
   [e-mail]         ^-----------------------------------^


(Doesn't look like *real* line noise, now, does it?)


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From: [e-mail] ([e-mail])
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:55:56 GMT
Lines: 68

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin T Stiner) writes:
>Didn't we hear a while back about the guys who supposedly created all
>these things as a joke and then video taped how they did it?  Are crop
>circles still actually believed to be made by aliens (I thought the guys
>had enough proof otherwise)?
>
>Just asking.....
>
>--
>Kevin T. Stiner                    |"..because happiness is not
>[e-mail]  |an ideal of reason but of
>AMIGA 4000      Serial No. 000403  |imagination."
>NeXT mail encouraged!!             |   --IMMANUEL KANT


Actually, as far as crop circles go, there has never been any conclusive proof
of anything. Many people have come forward saying "I know how to do it" and
have proven that. However, the crop circles they produce are many magnatudes
smaller and less complicated than the "real" versions, whatever that means.
I guess I better define "real".

A real crop circle usually, to the best of my knowledge, has the following:

Very VERY large amount of area covered. Not necessarily lots of crop mashed
but to create it, say, with a giant ballpoint pen, the pen tip might have
to travel 10 miles. Sometimes it will be a complex geometric design that
stretches over 50 - 60 acres. If you add all the distances of the lines, it
will be real appearant that they weren't made by a couple retired guys
with 2x4s and strings. ...At least not this month!

Basal stalks show evidence of microwave heating. This is appearantly what
has caused the circle. Or at least it was the energy used to create or cause
the bending of the crop stalks.

A lack of physical damage to the affected areas. Sure, they are bent over but
there is no evidence of the crop being mashed. Basal stalks are bent, not
split. Anyone who knows anything about wheat, for example, if shown the
angles at which most real crop cirle affected area plants are bent, would
tell you that you will see fiber separation in the stalk at the point of
the bend. Real crop circles show none of the fiber separation that the
"Guys With The 2x4s" created ones do. According to crop circle researchers
the stalks appear to have "grown" in a bend.

All the above information is second hand from researchers in the field. (no
pun intended) However, from my own observations I have seen one thing that
has never been mentioned. If I go out and mash down a patch of wheat while its
green, in two days it will be 60% back upright. Even if you took a blacktop/
asphalt roller around in the field, two days, its back upright, or at least a
lot of it is. The plan "heals" the fiber separation in the basal stalk and
causes the stalk to angle back up. Two things different about REAL crop circles
that I have noticed: 1) The darn things don't come back up for a LONG time! I
mean maybe 2 weeks. That proves to me its not somebody mashing them down.
2) When they do stand back up, its not in the same way. Its somewhat hard to
explain but I will try. Say you mash down a little circle of wheat. In two
days you will notice that a lot of it has stood back up. The bend has
straighted back out somewhat. Now, it will never straighten out ALL the way
but most of the way. The plant "heals" the bent portion of the stalk. Thats
an indication of the fake crop circle. However, with a real crop circle the
bend never straightens out. Several inches from the bend, the plant will simply
start turning up. There is a big difference in the appearance of the stalk
when you see one from a fake circle and one from a real circle.


Gregg.
--
        Gregg Brown: Serious about UFO Sighting and Abduction Research
    812-442-5354 (Voice)(24 hours/7 days) or e-mail me at [e-mail]
               All information will be strictly confidential.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] ([e-mail])
Subject: Re: The Watchers --- BOOK!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:40:02 GMT
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Titanium Knight) writes:
>I'm reading a book called "The Watchers - The Secret Design Behind UFO
>Abduction", by Raymond E. Fowler.  I would like to know peoples views on
>this book.  I'm on chapter 9, and it is EXTREMELY fascinating!
>
>Titan

Well, I can't say I disliked the book but....

Here is my opinion of it. Remember, you asked...

The Watchers, as compared to the other abduction works I have read, ranks as
a somewhat "dressed to sell" version of what possibly happened. I think it
is a perfect example of what happens when you let your imagination dwell
on events. "Dressed to sell" pretty much sums it up. The secret designs? Well,
Budd figured out the secret designs long before Dressed To Sell came along. Of
course his mundane stories (or DMJ's for that matter) just don't sound as
entertaining as the ones in Dressed To Sell. However, I took the book
as mostly truth except for a lot of the glitzy details. The abduction
scenarios that Betty puts forth are not uncommon but just better dressed.

What we need are sane analyzations of what is going in with this abduction
thing. Not versions that are dressed to sell. Of course its just my opinion.
I am sure someone could write you a more complete analysis if I had the book
with me (I make notes in the margins). There are several chapters that
Ray wrote that should be read by anyone researching the subject of abductions.
If I recall properly, don't quote me on this since I am not looking at my
notes or research log, I think they were chapters 1 11 12 and 16. Those had
a lot of good info in them. The rest smacked of contacteeism just a little
to much for me to swallow it "unchewed".


Gregg.
--
        Gregg Brown: Serious about UFO Sighting and Abduction Research
    812-442-5354 (Voice)(24 hours/7 days) or e-mail me at [e-mail]
               All information will be strictly confidential.
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From: [e-mail] (John C. Baez)
Subject: Re: New University - Call for Faculty and Students
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: riesz
Organization: Department of Mathematics, U. C. Riverside
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 07:15:31 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
>>> VISIONARY PHYSICIST, DR. JACK SARFATTI, APPOINTED TO SCIENCE BOARD OF WORLD
>>> UNIVERSITY
>>>
>
>What I want to know is: where did Dr. Sarfatti get his PhD, under whom, when,
>and in what?  Did he create his own university (note, his "press release" was
>from himself)?
>
>I want to know, so I can avoid sending any of my students there.

Ulp.  He went to U. C. Riverside, where I teach, and got his PhD under
Fred Cummings in the physics department.  All I can say is:

1)  It was a long time ago and I wasn't around, so don't blame me.
2)  Cummings is a fine physicist (whose name is attached to a well-known
set of equations that describes nonlinear effects in multimode lasers),
and apparently he is just as disgusted by Sarfatti's antics as you are.
3)  He is, apparently, an isolated case!  Sending your students to UCR
will *not* turn them into Sarfatti clones.  Honest.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13755 alt.alien.visitors:13029 sci.skeptic:37594
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: UFO TV
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 09:44:55 GMT
Lines: 10

[e-mail] wrote:

: same night we have Space Rangers (the pilot) which deals with a

I just saw Space Rangers for the first time - I've subsequently found out that
I've got it bad for the blonde on the show... <swoon>
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"It is your resistance to 'what is' that causes your suffering."   -- Buddha
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Leaf)
Subject: Re: mail exchange with aliens
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 10:43:32 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Lines: 31

Philippe said:

I'm looking for (snail) mail addresses of aliens currently on Earth who are
willing to answer letters.

I'm already corresponding with Hatton and Kortron & Solinus but would
appreciate having more contacts. [Both are great if you're a stamp
collector, which I'm not.] Hatton is sometimes scary, but this should be
expected considering how may enemies he has. Kortron & Solinus are real
nice.

I there are enough informative answers, I could be willing to summarize (or
put this in a FAQ, or do whatever seems fit. Maybe a "Comprehensive
Directory of Aliens on Earth" (or in the States for a start)).

[PS: I'm only interested in _aliens_, not devils or gods or ghosts ...]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philippe please contact [e-mail], he is definitely an alien
with superior intelligence.  In fact he knows just exactly what kind of beer
I am going to order before I actually order it!!!  He must you some sort of
improbability process to figure out that stuff.

--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Who is it dear?                    |  Don't fear the Reaper,
It's a quaint little man from the   |  Fear your government.
village...something about the       |
reaping!?"                          |  [e-mail]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Leaf)
Subject: Re: How To Contact Good Type UFO.
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 10:51:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Lines: 20

Wanker (John Winston) said:
 You may already know that I think very highly of Edgar Cayce. Here is some
information about him;....A mysterious blue crystal helped one of the
world's greatest psychics make amazingly accurate predictions - and it can
give you the same eerie power!
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

Johnny son, arent you forgetting the pyramid that they sit in with their
crystals?  But people who sit in quartz pyramids should'nt predict the end of
the universe!

--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Who is it dear?                    |  Don't fear the Reaper,
It's a quaint little man from the   |  Fear your government.
village...something about the       |
reaping!?"                          |  [e-mail]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 93 10:49:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:
> Chip Salzenberg ([e-mail]) wrote:
>
> : The fact remains that you publicly posted that the Protocols were, and
> : I quote, ``DAMN specific'' about who were the people responsible for
> : various and sundry bad things in the world.  That statement could only
> : come from a person who considered the Protocols to be real.
>
> I thought that "Protocols" was long ago proven to be a fantasy cooked up by the
> Nazis to justify mistreatment of Jews before and during WWII - or has this
> dead horse surfaced yet again?

Protocols predates Hitler's Nazis although he certainly referred to
the document and its authenticity. Supposedly written at a graveyard
in Poland some time about the turn of the century -- maybe someone can
be more exact.

Whether Hitler believed in them or not isn't really an issue. The question
of their authenticity is discussed briefly in Mein Kampf. It's quite clear
that he knew that promoting them himself would only serve to help his
cause.

Anyone have a copy (in English) they could email me (or post)?
--
Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology       Internet: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]                 Int: [phone]
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Subject: re: nasty remarks
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 10:37:09 GMT
Lines: 5


For the record, the quote about me that is enraging some people was not
written by me about me but was written by "rcl" as clearly stated in
original post. rcl is Richard Lubbock. The barf version is, of course,
an imitation of Lubbock's original.
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From: [e-mail] (Neuromancer)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Organization: Cyberspace
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 02:24:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: Teacher, teacher I go declair, I believe Tom is teling
>us a bit of truth.
>John Winston

Just when I thought I could parse nearly anything....

Neuromancer
--
--------------------- All comments and opinions are my own --------------------
Bryan Fullerton aka Neuromancer                         Computer Variables, Inc
[e-mail]                         155 East Beaver Creek, Unit 27
uunet.ca!comspec!cspace!neuro            Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada L4B 2N2
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Boutell)
Subject: Re: THE DIVINE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Cold Spring Harbor Labs
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 13:26:06 GMT
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]> don't writes:
>Steve Lamont ([e-mail]) wrote:
>: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>
>[munch...munch...]
>
>
>     TRAVEL  REPLACE  blind  faith.   TRAVEL  REPLACE  blind
      C                                G
>faith.   Before  a physically dies trans-lates before a Per-
                    A                         Bm
>fect LIVING  Master  or  other  if  they  finally  WISE  UP!
            A                                             E
>Finally WISE UP!
 G            E
>
>     Other if they finally WISE UP!  A Perfect LIV-ING  Mas-
             C            G       E         C         E
>ter or other if they finally WISE UP!  REPLACE blind faith.
                              G         C
>
>     Faith.

I got to have.

-T

atonal records plc

(nobody can replace Blind Faith, philistine)


--
Tom Boutell, [e-mail]

Clausthaler is the best non - alcoholic beer in the known universe.
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From: [e-mail] (Fibre Optics)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 93 14:44:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Nntp-Posting-Host: diana

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Bob) writes:



>  Crop circles are fake.

Really ?
Wow !


--
Peter Harris   G4BDQ  |         Unusual exploding disclaimer  ->    (}|){//)
Fibre Optics *-----------------------------------------------------(--PAF !-)
Southampton University| "Relax in the safety of your own delusions" (/}|{\\)
[e-mail]    |           Kerry Wendell Thornley              |||
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From: [e-mail] (Alan Filipski)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: GTX Corporation, Phoenix AZ
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 19:35:39 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>  On the other hand (this is true:) in late 1991 the
>  Wheat Foods Council, an industry trade group, reported
>  a study showing that 47% of Americans believe oatmeal
>  is made from wheat!

it is also true that 47% of americans believe that the human species was
created in its present form less than 10,000 years ago. coincidence?
you be the judge...


  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 ( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA )
 ( INTERNET: [e-mail]      UUCP: uunet!gtx!al         PHONE: [phone] )
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: How To Contact Good Type UFO.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 JAN 93 09:50:04
Lines: 24


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes...
>: JW So there you have it folks. There's more to come on this later. Stay tuned.
>: Source of Information:January 26, 1993 Examiner. page 4.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Sorry john, no offense intended, but I (and many others, I might add) just
>don't take tabloids for an ounce of truth.  Is there any better proof, other
>than the supermarket tabloid?  Have there been any serious books on it?  Not
>flaming here, just curious...I'm sure most would agree that a tabloid paper
>isn't world-renouned for accuracy, much less truth.

And John, We have informed you time and again that those rags MAKE UP those
stories. You are not stupid, you can read for yourself the fine-print
disclaimer included in them.

And John, I might add that the more you continue to post worthless articles
from these tabloids, the more convinced I become that you are a disinformation
operative. Care to tell us who you work for?

Please don't tell us now, "I will consider what you've said", and then go on
posting tabloids. We've been through this cycle several times over now. If you
read this, and then continue, I will conclude you are indeed actively trying to
discredit us.
-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 16:14:59 GMT
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Alin-Andrei Carsteanu) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davies) writes:
|> >
|> >The book "The Fringes of Reason" has a pretty good chapter on spontaneous
|> >combustion.  The basic conclusion was (body fat) + (cloth) + (spark) = (candle),
|> >i.e. a dead person with a lit cigarette lying on a rug would keep smoldering
|> >until all of their body fat was consumed, so that when they were discovered
|> >later there would just be a pile of ashes on a burnt carpet.
|>
|> Cases known also include LIVING persons, of which some survived. Try to
|> spontaneously burn someone's fat... Har!

This appeal to intuition is unfounded and leads you to an incorrect.
The explanation of burning body fat was proposed for cases that had
very similar characteristics:
  -the victim was likely to have lost consciousness, on a rug or
   chair that could catch fire and burn hot enough to start 'melting'
   the body
  -the fire burned for many hours undiscovered, giving LOTS of time
   to burn the body entirely
  -in many cases there was EXTENSIVE damage to the room, indicating
   a very hot and destructive fire.
In these conditions, the fat will indeed ignite and burn hot enough
to destroy the whole body.

I know of no evidence of SHC in living people.  You're going
to have to document that extraordinary claim.

|> I would rather be cautious before jumping the conclusions.

Good advice.  Take it.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Chasin)
Subject: Wanna talk about aliens?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 05:18:03 GMT
Organization: Santa Fe Institute
Lines: 26



4m is a new internet chat network.  The following are
instructions on how to get on the 4m network.

Type these commands in exactly from a shell prompt,
and you will have successfully FTP'd the 4m client,
and compiled it.

ftp ftp.santafe.edu
anonymous
anonymous
binary
cd pub
cd misc
get 4m-211.tar.Z
quit
uncompress 4m-211.tar.Z
tar xvf 4m-211.tar
cd 4m-client
make
cp .4mrc $HOME
4m

That's it.. Have fun.

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Correction.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 06:28:54 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear People of Earth: I should have said in my last post, It happens
quite a bit. It appears that I am not perfect yet.
  I have had a good responce about the Lapis Lazuli by E-mail and should
have a program of experimentation established soon. We've got to
get serious about this you known.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Friday
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 06:40:54 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

Well what do you know folks? It's friday and we haven't destroyed
this planet yet. Here in wonderful California a man just beat
his wife to death, threw his child off the Golden Gate Bridge and
then jumped in himself. Welcome to California. If you can make it
here you can make it anywhere. I'm not gripping because I volunteered
to come here to further my developement and help others. It's a
wonderful life.
John Winston
w
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 06:44:50 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I have a serious question to ask you people. Have you
hugged your Bigfootb lately.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Trevor J Morgan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 93 16:01:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News supervisor)
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Organization: Brunel University
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In article <[e-mail]>, Rich Payne wrote:

> Detection of a wobble by photographic means has always seemed a bit
> suspicious to me. It seems that the error must exceed the magnitude
> of the wobble. Perhaps use of CCDs would reduce the errors. This is
> something about which I have doubts, can anyone confirm the innacuracies
> present in photographic detection?

I would just like to point out that Photographic film can be made to a much
higher resolution than can reasonably be stored in any sort of electronic
device, or indeed produced by CCDs.  It has since been pointed out that
such detection, as mentioned, is not done photographically.  This means that
CCDs are also out.

Yours,
Trevor.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: My researches with UFOs and Diamagnetism
Date: 29 Jan 1993 13:11:07 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Tom Randolph) says:
>
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes...
>>OK now... the book that really gave me a big clue as to how they might work
>>is an old 1970 book entitled 'Diamagnetism and UFOs', by some professor
>>Burt.  In short he proposed a new theory to account for the behaviour of
>>electrons and protons with regards to diamagnetism...................
>>               - Richard Temps
>>                 [e-mail]
>
>Given that all the above handwaving actually works, how did they get here?
>There's no mass out in space to be repulsed by the alleged force.
>
>-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Some sightings {don't ask which ones} have been of small craft
emerging from a large cigar shaped "Mother" ship. So lets say
that the small ships are for whizzing around a planet, and could
possibly contain a drive like that specified above, and the mother
ship, with a different drive, is for getting from planet to planet.

Cheers
Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon surface: No ETs
Date: 29 Jan 1993 13:39:23 GMT
Organization: Zikzak public access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
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Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Scott Leaf) says:
>
>You said:
>
>After watching the NASA tapes on the apollo missions to the moon there is
>one thing that really stands out. The surface of the moon has very little
>erosion and the impact craters are billions of years old. The tracks left
>by the astronauts will be there for millions of years and yet they did not
>see any evidents of other tracks. This can lead to the conculsion that any
>ETs skipped over the moon or any landing marks have not been found.
>
Some program on TV {Name???} stated that the Apollo astronauts
saw quite a lot of UFOs' , apparentley observing their missions, but
were unable to talk openly about them. So therefore it could be
assumed that the agency would also censure any ground actvity.

For those who think this is all a load of dingoe's kidnies, think of the
discussion as hyperthetical. {ie no flames please}

Buy the way have you seen the footage of the the two astronauts
on the Moon singing :"I was strolling on the moon one day, in the
merry merry month of June, December? May!, when much to my
suprise, a pair of lovely eyes" Thats where the clip finishes.

No conclusions, I just thought that was nice.

Cheers
Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ALiens - Great WHITE? Brotherhood
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 93 18:13:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: I enjoyed the quote from Buddha. I believe you will find
>that he is one of the good guys (Great White Brotherhood).
>John Winston.                    =======================


This kind of talk scares the hell out of me! I know that Billy Meir
said that the Pleidians call themselves "Arians". He also uses the
"Great White Brotherhood" talk. Sounds too much like a basis for
bigotry and facist beliefs. It is just to Nazi for me.

--
........--=={0}==--.........................--=={0}==--..............
--=={0}==--  * .   *. [e-mail]  *   .*  --=={0}==--.
 *   --=={0}==-- *  .   DENISE FAITH SOLIS     --=={0}==--*.*
--=={0}==--.....--=={0}==--..................*.............--=={0}==--
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From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Hey folks....
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 17:47:38 GMT
Lines: 7


  Hey, does anybody remember that guy who had dreams about being a
  'protector' and having visions of some meeting involving an
  emissary from the 'Satanas' federation and a woman with jet black
  hair etc. ?  Did he ever surface again?  It was quite an interesting
  story he cooked up and it would be fun to hear the next chapter.
-Max
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 93 18:51:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Edinburgh University
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davies) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>One of them is spontaneous human
>>combustion. If you ever figure out what causes that one let me know.

>The book "The Fringes of Reason" has a pretty good chapter on spontaneous
>combustion.  The basic conclusion was (body fat) + (cloth) + (spark) = (candle),
>i.e. a dead person with a lit cigarette lying on a rug would keep smoldering
>until all of their body fat was consumed, so that when they were discovered
>later there would just be a pile of ashes on a burnt carpet.

Several experimenters have tried rolling up fatty meat in cloth and
trying to light it. None have succeeded, including one scientist who
was scheduled to repeat this debunking experiment on live TV.  When it
failed to work he poured alcohol on it to start it. It went out. He
tried a blow torch. No joy. The TV people got a bit shirty and started
questioning him about exactly how he had done it before. Much
embarrassed evasion followed. A hilarious example of science in
action!

Of course any medieval witch burner or modern crematorium operator
could have told him it wouldn't work. It takes a LOT of high quality
fuel to consume a human body. If the fuel runs out too soon you get
big meaty bits left over.  And there are plenty of photos just as you
describe -- people burnt to fine ashes without much else being burnt.


--
Chris Malcolm    [e-mail]          [phone]
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Subject: Mysticism, Physics and Art
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 18:32:35 GMT
Lines: 7


What is the New Physics? It is my personal complex art form blending real
physics with imaginary mystical vision bridging C.P. Snows "Two Cultures".
It is a "hybrid" "Glass Bead Game" of Magick without magic. Barbarians,
hacks, mediocrities, rednecks, apparachiks, and other one-dimensional
uncultured creatures, comfortable with shadows on the wall of the cave,
react with fear, anger and rage when they gaze upon its Illumination.
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon surface: No ETs
Date: 29 Jan 1993 13:15:27 -0600
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ub.d.umn.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter T.) writes:
:In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Scott Leaf) says:
:>
:>You said:
:>
:>After watching the NASA tapes on the apollo missions to the moon there is
:>one thing that really stands out. The surface of the moon has very little
:>erosion and the impact craters are billions of years old. The tracks left
:>by the astronauts will be there for millions of years and yet they did not
:>see any evidents of other tracks. This can lead to the conculsion that any
:>ETs skipped over the moon or any landing marks have not been found.
:>
:Some program on TV {Name???} stated that the Apollo astronauts
:saw quite a lot of UFOs' , apparentley observing their missions, but
:were unable to talk openly about them. So therefore it could be
:assumed that the agency would also censure any ground actvity.

Many of these sightings were solved in a later Apollo mission.  They
said tehy had seen lots of long 'sparkley' things.  As it turned out,
these were actually ice crystals on the windows that got knocked of by
the vibrations of the spacecraft.

:For those who think this is all a load of dingoe's kidnies, think of the
:discussion as hyperthetical. {ie no flames please}

Not a flame, just added information.

:Buy the way have you seen the footage of the the two astronauts
:on the Moon singing :"I was strolling on the moon one day, in the
:merry merry month of June, December? May!, when much to my
:suprise, a pair of lovely eyes" Thats where the clip finishes.

Uh, I have actually seen this clip (and that's not where it ends).
(some people may actually know the song he was making fun of).

The flight was in December, so that's why he said it.  The other
astronaut correrected him. (or it could be the other way around - that
seems more likely).  Afterwards they just have a short laugh (chuckle?)
and continue on their work.  (they do finish up the stanza first, I believe).

:No conclusions, I just thought that was nice.
:
:Cheers
:Peter T.

    Thanks
    Robert Fentiman

Space Science Buff - Potential Physics and CS Major
InterNet: [e-mail]
At: University of Minnesota, Duluth


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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALiens - Great WHITE? Brotherhood
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 93 19:33:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise Solis) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>Dear Folks: I enjoyed the quote from Buddha. I believe you will find
>>that he is one of the good guys (Great White Brotherhood).
>>John Winston.                    =======================
>
>
>This kind of talk scares the hell out of me! I know that Billy Meir
>said that the Pleidians call themselves "Arians". He also uses the
>"Great White Brotherhood" talk. Sounds too much like a basis for
>bigotry and facist beliefs. It is just to Nazi for me.

I think it is easy for post-WWII people to see this and read in negative
connotations, but the phrase Great White Brotherhood, should not be
imagined as anitsemetic or Nazi.

The roots of this go back to the times of Atlantis and Mu, and this term
has been in common usage long before the term Nazi. And there is no true
connection between the term Arian and Nazi either. Just because a meglomaniac
like Hitler became obsessed with populating the planet with Nordic genes
and wiping out the Jews is no reason to associate the Nazi party with the
GWB...

I see this happen all the time, and I don't understand why.

Jeff-
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13767 alt.alien.visitors:13053 sci.skeptic:37636
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Date: 29 Jan 1993 20:07:36 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert McGrath) writes:
>I know of no evidence of SHC in living people.  You're going
>to have to document that extraordinary claim.

I read somewhere that there were several reported cases of spontaneous human
combustion in which the people were just walking along and caught fire, some
years ago in parts of Europe.  The thing all these people had in common was
that they were carrying the same brand of butane lighter.  Turns out that that
brand was defective and prone to leak.  One spark, and SHC.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel Oldham)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Unsolved Mysteries: UFOs on film
Date: 29 Jan 1993 21:04:59 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 25
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu

I just saw the Unsolved Mysteries show last night about the lady in Canada
that has been filming UFOs from her back yard. It seems that her own family
can not see them and were making fun of her so she got out her 8 mm camera
and started to film them. The film footage is really strange for it shows
the UFOs as white blobs in the sky but then there are single frames that have
a flash of light in them. On closer examination of the single fames shows
streaks of lights all over the sky. It seems like these things are slow moving
then all of a sudden zoom all over the place for one frame and then go back
to where they were. She has been doing this for a number of years and the
story went on to say that this other man came to investigate and while he
was looking at her pictures he started to hear something. The lady smiled
and said that they were here and they both went to the back door to look.
At first he could not see anything and after she pointed it out to him,
he was shocked to see a UFO up close. The UFO took off after that and he
did not get a chance to get a picture of it but had an artist draw it and
it was the classic saucer shape with windows. She claims that the UFOs are
coming closer all the time and she keeps filming them. It is interesting to
note that the UFOs only show themself to certain people. This would seem to
suggest that some people can just go to they back door and command these
UFOs to appear.

--
dano:


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From: [e-mail] (RICHARD L ALTSTATT)
Subject: Re: New University - Call for Faculty and Students
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (RICHARD L ALTSTATT)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 20:43:39 GMT
Lines: 28



>
>
> Please post to other conferences.
> Interested parties, faculty and students, forward CV. Degrees will be
> granted.

> The first official act will be an International Conference using multimedia
> and telepresence. The recording of the Conference will be broadcast by
> satellite. The Scientific Board members will define the new hybrid sciences
> and give them names.
>
> The second act will be the creation of  a detailed script on multi-media CD
> ROM of the available knowledge on these cross-border disciplines and a
> computer programme for students. In addition, a document will be produced
> to define the further researches to be realised under the direction of each
> hybrid scientist who will be receiving grants.
>
    Bwa hahahahahhahahahahah,
        I can't believe this went out on the net !  Did Saffy really
write this?  I had no idea he could be this funny.  Please, please,
can I have a degree?  I want a Doctorate in Exact Science.  Then I can
really join the ranks of Mad Scientists Anonomous.  Could I get a
grant to study the stuff Safatti puts out on the net.  This is great,
it is going on the wall with the home healing methods and the devilbunny
posts.
            RA - Mad Scientist (in training)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel R. Oldham)
Subject: Unsolved Mysteries: UFOs on film
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administrator)
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Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 20:56:46 GMT
Lines: 25

I just saw the Unsolved Mysteries show last night about the lady in Canada
that has been filming UFOs from her back yard. It seems that her own family
can not see them and were making fun of her so she go out her 8 mm camera
and started to film them. The film footage is really strange for it shows
the UFOs as white blobs in the sky but then there are single frames that have
a flash of light in them. On closer examination of the single fames shows
streaks of lights all over the sky. It seems like these things are slow moving
then all of a sudden zoom all over the place for one frame and then go back
to where they were. She has been doing this for a number of years and the
story went on to say that this other man came to investigate and while he
was looking at her pictures he started to hear something. The lady smiled
and said that they were here and they both went to the back door to look.
At first he could not see anything and after she pointed it out to him,
he was shocked to see a UFO up close. The UFO took off after that and he
did not get a chance to get a picture of it but had an artist draw it and
it was the classic saucer shape with windows. She claims that the UFOs are
coming closer all the time and she keeps filming them. It is interesting to
note that the UFOs only show themself to certain people. This would seem to
suggest that some people can just go to they back door and command these
this UFOs to appear.

--
dano:


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From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALiens - Great WHITE? Brotherhood
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 93 23:20:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise Solis) writes:
>I think it is easy for post-WWII people to see this and read in negative
>connotations, but the phrase Great White Brotherhood, should not be
>imagined as anitsemetic or Nazi.
>
>The roots of this go back to the times of Atlantis and Mu, and this term
>has been in common usage long before the term Nazi. And there is no true
>connection between the term Arian and Nazi either. Just because a meglomaniac
>like Hitler became obsessed with populating the planet with Nordic genes
>and wiping out the Jews is no reason to associate the Nazi party with the
>GWB...
>
>I see this happen all the time, and I don't understand why.
>
>Jeff-

Jeff, I'll bet a weeks pay you are white.
The problem is putting the word "GREAT" in front of "WHITE". There is a
definite image here of superiority. Being a minority I can see where this
leads because I have been the butt of many a sterotype.

There are many alien types but you don't hear them calling themselves
The Great Grey Brotherhood or the Great Lizard People? But Hitler DID IN
FACT use the very words "Great White Brotherhood".

I couldn't possibly explain in detail (and with the passion) with the busy
schedule I have today. Hope this will explain a little..

                              Denise
--
........--=={0}==--.........................--=={0}==--..............
--=={0}==--  * .   *. [e-mail]  *   .*  --=={0}==--.
 *   --=={0}==-- *  .   DENISE FAITH SOLIS     --=={0}==--*.*
--=={0}==--.....--=={0}==--..................*.............--=={0}==--
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From: [e-mail] (Marketta Pajula)
Subject: Re: Friday
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 22:25:26 GMT
Lines: 7




John wrote something about friday, but here in Finland it's already
saturday. Are we finns a little ahead of you americans?

Olli
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From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jan 93 19:22:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Setec Astronomy
Lines: 42


Peter:
As a Charter Member of the Ninety Caliber Club, it is my privilege and
honor to bestow upon you the following Award.  Let me be the first to
congratulate you on your new status!

  ***************************************************************************
  *                                                                         *
  *                         CERTIFICATE of UPGRADE                          *
  *                                   to                                    *
  *                            COMPLETE ASSHOLE                             *
  *                                                                         *
  *                             is Awarded to                               *
  *                                                                         *
  *                              PETER NELSON                               *
  *                                                                         *
  * In Recognition of Your Obnoxious Attitude, Ability to Piss People Off,  *
  *  Complete Assinine Juvenile Behavior and Total Dedication to Personal   *
  *     Gain Without Regard to the Many Hardships You Have Forced Upon      *
  *            Friends, Family and Netters During Your Lifetime,            *
  *                            You Have Become                              *
  *                       A LEGEND in Your Own Mind                         *
  *     To Recognize Your Upgrade From Half-Assed to Complete Asshole       *
  *                Gives All Concerned Great Satisfaction.                  *
  *             If Anyone, for Any Reason, Doubts Your Status,              *
  *                                                                         *
  *                            JUST BE YOURSELF                             *
  *                                                                         *
  ***************************************************************************

This Certificate entitles you to drive really slow in the fast lane,
park in handicapped spaces, and waste enormous amounts of bandwidth
in inappropriate newsgroups with your pompous, arrogant, and
condescending pseudo-intellectual drivel.  Enjoy it, Peter, you've
earned it!


--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: Please don't hold me responsible for what my computer
>says after I quite typing.
>John Winston


I just have to ask... How will we know???


Rich

[e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Donald Schulz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: mail exchange with aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 93 01:00:46 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Leaf)
writes:
> Philippe said:
>
> I'm looking for (snail) mail addresses of aliens currently on Earth who
are
> willing to answer letters.
>
> I'm already corresponding with Hatton and Kortron & Solinus but would
> appreciate having more contacts. [Both are great if you're a stamp
> collector, which I'm not.] Hatton is sometimes scary, but this should be
> expected considering how may enemies he has. Kortron & Solinus are real
> nice.
>
> I there are enough informative answers, I could be willing to summarize
(or
> put this in a FAQ, or do whatever seems fit. Maybe a "Comprehensive
> Directory of Aliens on Earth" (or in the States for a start)).
>
> [PS: I'm only interested in _aliens_, not devils or gods or ghosts ...]
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> Philippe please contact [e-mail], he is definitely an
alien
> with superior intelligence.  In fact he knows just exactly what kind of
beer
> I am going to order before I actually order it!!!  He must you some sort
of
> improbability process to figure out that stuff.
>
> --
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^
>
> "Who is it dear?                    |  Don't fear the Reaper,
> It's a quaint little man from the   |  Fear your government.
> village...something about the       |
> reaping!?"                          |  [e-mail]
>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++

I too am interested in snail-mailing or e-mailing with aliens...If you
could send addresses to me, too, I would appreciate it.  Thanks!

--Don
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: SHC.
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SHC?  What's that??
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

"It is your resistance to 'what is' that causes your suffering."   -- Buddha
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From: [e-mail] (Alan Jenn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: mail exchange with aliens
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> I'm looking for (snail) mail addresses of aliens currently on Earth who are
> willing to answer letters.

What info do you get that leads you to believe that these are aliens
that you are communicating with?

> I'm already corresponding with Hatton and Kortron & Solinus but would
> appreciate having more contacts. [Both are great if you're a stamp
> collector, which I'm not.] Hatton is sometimes scary, but this should be
> expected considering how may enemies he has. Kortron & Solinus are real
> nice.

> [PS: I'm only interested in _aliens_, not devils or gods or ghosts ...]
>
> Much thanks in advance,
>
> --Philippe


;)  Alan
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From: [e-mail] (markbr)
Subject: Re: Nasty Remarks
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet login for mail routing)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Murray Altheim) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>
>    [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
>>
>>Topic 279:  Mad Scientists II
>># 12: Epigone of Koestler (rcl)      Mon, Sep 14, '92  (17:58)
>>16 lines
>>
>>Praising Sarfatti in front of his face certainly won't alter his
>>character for better or worse, so let me say this. He strikes me
>>as one of those unusual American originals, The Existential Hero.
>>Such people don't often exist outside the fiction of Hemingway or
>>Mailer. Perhaps Sarfatti has drunk deeply of the Mailerian spring.
>>Whatever drew him into this way of life, the fact remains that
>>he's obeying Nietzsche's maxim, live dangerously; and he's
>>pursuing Whitehead's ideal of the Adventure of Ideas. This he is
>>doing not as an insensate sleepwalker, but fully conscious and
>>aware of the dangers he runs and the glories he might gain.
>
>Anyone who refuses to speak about himself in anything but the
>third person, cross-posts to eight groups, sidles himself up next
>to Mailer, Nietzsche and Whitehead, and thinks of himself as both
>a mad scientist and The Existential Hero, strikes me as not only
>as egotistical and self-important, but rather a bore.
>
>A good friend of mine stated that most men don't mature until at
>least 35 years. Mr. Sarfatti, you have a long way to go. Do you
>also drive a sports car and are you losing your hair?
>
<munch>

Well, *I'm* a Mad Scientist, too, and I don't own a sportscar (though I
drive a "family car" like one), and I'm growing my hair back. On the
other hand, Mr. Sarfatti seems to be a movie-style mad scientist, as
opposed to a RealMadScientist. The key difference is that the movie-style
ones seem to want to Conquer The World, whereas those of us who are NOT
movie style, and therefore also not dain-bread idiots respond to this idea
with a hearty "whatEVERfor? Do YOU want to have to deal with Northern
Ireland, and the former Yugoslavia, etc.?"

Thank you, no, I'll just finish my Famous Secret Theory (tm) and ->LEAVE<-,
taking those friends who want to go with me, leaving this world to
compost a little longer (let the nuts sprout).

    mark, whose feet have always been firmly planted in mid-air
        (and whose ass, therefore, is firmly planted elsewhere)

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From: [e-mail] (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1993 05:34:22 GMT
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[e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:

# I thought that "Protocols" was long ago proven to be a
# fantasy cooked up by the
# Nazis to justify mistreatment of Jews before and during WWII - or has this
# dead horse surfaced yet again?

The "Protocols" were used by the Nazis to stir up hate against the
Jews. Hitler probably believed they were authentic - at least, Goebbels
mentions this fact in his diary. However, the Nazis did not author them,
but the Czarist secert police did. Here is a summary of the main facts:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Protocols" were written in France, sometime between 1894 and 1899.
The main sponsor was Czarist secret police 'ochrana', and namely
Peter Ivanovich Raczkovskij, who was the head of all foreign
bueraus of 'ochrana'; he also organized similar 'journalistic
provocations' before.

The author, as it was established with high degree of likehood, was
Matvey Golovinskij, a literary figure, paid by 'ochrana'. It has
been proven beyond doubt that "Protocols" besides being apocryphal
and fraudulent document, were also plagarised from Maurice Joly's
"Dialog in hell between Montesquieu and Macchiavelli", originally
written in 1864, a political pamhlet against Napoleon III. About
40% of the text of "Protocols" has its roots in Joly's work.

"Protocols" were first published in 1903 by a newspaper in Petersburg
"Russkoje Znamia", which also claimed that "Protocols" are actually
texts of secret lectures presented in Basel in 1897 on the First
Zionist Congress. Such a Congress really took place. The text, however,
also points to some events which happened long after closing of
the congress.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

-Danny Keren.


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From: [e-mail] (Marketta Pajula)
Subject: Re: SHC.
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Ed Carp ([e-mail]) wrote:
: SHC?  What's that??
: --
: Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177
:
: "It is your resistance to 'what is' that causes your suffering."   -- Buddha


Spontaneous human combustion
or savage humanoid carneval


Olli Pajul
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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Subject: Psychotronics Experiments 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Topic  93:  Biological effects of electromagnetic radiation?
#232: George A. Gleason (geo3cs)      Fri, Jul 13, '90  (01:32)      15
lines
You may be interested that Michael Persinger at Laurentian University in
Ontario has found that EM fields around 5-Hz can induce various
alterations in consciousness.  I have a paper in which he found
significant increases in word-substitution behavior under test conditions:
The subject hears a sentence like "Sally stepped over cracks in the
sidewalk," and then repeats it as "Sally *skipped*..."

Persinger also alludes to connexions between EM fields and transpersonal
experiences.  He finds these to be similar to the experiences reported
by individuals with temporal lobe abnormalities.  A sense of the "presence"
of some kind of "significant being" is typical.  Persinger finds reason
to support the hypothesis that many anecdotal reports of UFO contact may
in fact be hallucinations induced by exposure to EM fields.  One could
extend the hypothesis and enquire further regarding culturally accepted
forms of religious experience.

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From: [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti)
Subject: Physics of Contact Experience?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Topic  93:  Biological effects of electromagnetic radiation?
#240: david gotlib (drdave)      Thu, Jul 19, '90  (18:28)      56 lines

Here is more stuff I have unearthed from the medical literature on
the link between electromagnetic fields and psi phenomena.

Persinger MA
Increased geomagnetic activity and the occurrence of bereavement
hallucinations: evidence for melatonin-mediated microseizuring in
the temporal lobe?

Neurosci Lett 1988 Jun 7;88(3):271-4
This study was designed to test the hypothesis that common
bereavement apparitions are hallucinatory experiences evoked by
transient electrical instability within the (glucocorticoid)
sensitized mesiobasal temporal lobes. All first hand reports of
'postmortem apparition' experiences were collected from a published
data base. The days on which the experiences occurred displayed
significantly greater (mean increase = 10 gamma) geomagnetic
activity compared to the days before or afterwards. These results
suggest that bereavement apparitions are situation-specific
hallucinations evoked by microseizures within sensitized temporal
lobe structures

Gearhart L  Persinger MA
Geophysical variables and behavior: XXXIII. Onsets of historical
and contemporary poltergeist episodes occurred with sudden
increases in geomagnetic activity.
Percept Mot Skills 1986 Apr;62(2):463-6
(similar correlation found here as in article above)

Persinger MA Geophysical variables and behavior: LV. Predicting the details
of visitor experiences and the personality of experients: the temporal lobe
factor. Percept Mot Skills 1989 Feb;68(1):55-65
The visitor experience, a more intense form of the normal sense
of presence, emphasizes the deep belief of personal contact with
an extraterrestrial (or religious) entity. Phenomenological details
of visitor experiences are expected to reflect the functions of
deep temporal lobe structures; common details involve cosmic
meaningfulness, vestibular experiences, flickering, complex visual
sensations and alimentary references. After intense experiences,
interictal-like behaviors similar to religious conversions
(widening affect, sense of personal, desire to spread the word,
concern about Man's destiny) emerge. Normal people who are prone to these
experiences show frequent temporal lobe signs and specific
personality characteristics that include enhanced creativity,
suggestibility, mild hypomania, anxiety, and emotional lability.
Learning histories that encourage the use of right temporal lobe
functions for the consolidation of memory, such as compartmentalization of
beliefs or repression due to early sexual abuse, predispose to intense
visitor experiences. The most frequent precipitants are psychological
depression, personal (existential) stress and proximal exposure to the
focal tectonic strain fields that accompany luminous phenomena. Possible
neuropsychological mechanisms are discussed.



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From: [e-mail] (Cameron Randale Bass)
Subject: Re: Psychotronics Experiments 1
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
>
>Topic  93:  Biological effects of electromagnetic radiation?
>#232: George A. Gleason (geo3cs)      Fri, Jul 13, '90  (01:32)      15
>lines
>You may be interested that Michael Persinger at Laurentian University in
>Ontario has found that EM fields around 5-Hz can induce various
>alterations in consciousness.  I have a paper in which he found
>significant increases in word-substitution behavior under test conditions:
>The subject hears a sentence like "Sally stepped over cracks in the
>sidewalk," and then repeats it as "Sally *skipped*..."
>
>Persinger also alludes to connexions between EM fields and transpersonal
>experiences.  He finds these to be similar to the experiences reported
>by individuals with temporal lobe abnormalities.  A sense of the "presence"
>of some kind of "significant being" is typical.  Persinger finds reason
>to support the hypothesis that many anecdotal reports of UFO contact may
>in fact be hallucinations induced by exposure to EM fields.  One could
>extend the hypothesis and enquire further regarding culturally accepted
>forms of religious experience.

     Before one extends the hypothesis, one had better be sure that
     the premise is correct.  Hallucinations are often pretty dramatic
     phenomena.  How come power EE's with exposure to all grades of harmonics
     and subharmonics in equipment do not seem to suffer hallucinations
     all the time?  As far as Sally skipping, what were the field strengths
     inside the skulls?  And was it double blind?  What was the sample size,
     and how statistically significant were the results?  Did the
     protocol avoid contact between experimenter and experimentee?
     Were the phrases recorded?  Were any of the experimentees Francophones?

     Why did he obtain no more substantial effect than some probably
     exceedingly complex low-level confusion?  As far as I know there
     are no low-freq. antennae in the brain attached to the word 'stepped'.
     I am skeptical that any nonlocal electrical excitation can produce such
     a subtle response.

                                   dale bass
--
C. R. Bass                                          [e-mail]
Department of Mechanical,
     Aerospace and Nuclear Engineering
University of Virginia                              [phone]
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From: gilly![e-mail] (Dave Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mysticism, Physics and Art
Date: 30 Jan 1993 03:43:55 -0600
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[e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:

>What is the New Physics? It is my personal complex art form blending real
>physics with imaginary mystical vision bridging C.P. Snows "Two Cultures".
>It is a "hybrid" "Glass Bead Game" of Magick without magic. Barbarians,

                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Couldn't-a-said it better myself. It's *fictional*.


------------------------ uunet!quack!gilly!dave ------------------------
================= Dave Fischer - Nature's Perfect Food =================
---------------------- [e-mail] ----------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davies) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>One of them is spontaneous human
>>>combustion. If you ever figure out what causes that one let me know.
>
>
>Of course any medieval witch burner or modern crematorium operator
>could have told him it wouldn't work. It takes a LOT of high quality
>fuel to consume a human body. If the fuel runs out too soon you get
>big meaty bits left over.  And there are plenty of photos just as you
>describe -- people burnt to fine ashes without much else being burnt.

I think this is pretty accurate. I watched Nova, and was unimpressed with
their treatment of SHC. It was much like the Nova for JFK; "this
is the MI5 and CIA, and we want you to believe...this". That's the
impression I get when I see that show.

So I think SHC is not something these people want to discuss, and that
there is something being hidden from us. I don't think people will
usually burn without a LOT of help...

1) Microwave beams?
2) Other radiation sources? Xrays?
3) High Fever?

Who knows...
Jeff-

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Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Saturday, 30 Jan 1993 09:31:27 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: newsletter article
Lines: 52

The following is an article from the 2nd issue of newsletter
"The Nefilim Forum". If interested in subscribing to this
interactive hard-copy publication, let me know. There is
a subscription charge, and no subscriptions outside of USA
are accepted.

       I have recently read a book called Out There by Howard
Bloom. From this book I have drawn several conclusions.
       The military has been not only interested in phenomena of
utilizing people with exceptional ESP, but has been using them as
a means to collect information about possible stationary military
targets of interest behind the "Iron Curtain", and mobile
military objects such as submarines. Not only is the information
collected is spacial in nature, i.e. location of a particular
Soviet submarine right now, but also the information could be
about an object that has been at a particular location some short
time ago but is no longer there at the time  such information is
being sought from a person with ESP. Well, we see that a
comparable information could and is being sought about the U.F.O.
by the military. Not only American, but Soviet, as well. Now
remembering so many instances of telepathic influences on humans
by the U.F.O. and its occupants, one could clearly see that most
if not all attempts by the military to collect information about
the U.F.O. using  people with ESP is being detected by the
extraterrestrials. A question arises: How do the
extraterrestrials respond to such acts? Do they somehow respond
by simple action of halting their flights for some time or some
similar action, or do they indeed try to influence in turn the
people with ESP employed by the military. If the latter is the
case, do the extraterrestrials simply "jamm up" those people's
abilities and/or accuracy of the information they provide, or do
the extraterrestrials relay some meaningful information willingly
to such people.
       A related question is, if the extraterrestrials know so much
about human psyche, why can't they learn all about the human
society of today by telepathic means. There is no reason for them
to send any "delegation" to ask us about ourselves and to
formally present themselves. They do not have to do that. They
have shown that they are there and that they have superior
technology, they roam in skies and over military bases with
impunity, so why bother to declare themselves. We do not know
their designs, but they are going about their business, and it is
the pure facts that they do so with impunity that is the reason
for the official reluctance to admit their existence. The cover
up is a cover for the government from being embarrassed by its
inability to influence the comings and goings of the U.F.O.'s as
well as to keep any ESP research secret.

Vladislav Botvinnik



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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Sightings
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 93 06:31:16 PST
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Dear Earthians: Boy, you should have watched Sightings on TV last
niht (friday). You would think I wrote the script. It was about
Bud Hopkins talking about adbuctions, Stanton Friedman talking about
government coverups, and Groom Lake UFOs. I'm telling you it was
marvelous, marvelous.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Protocols of Z.
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Dear People: I believe you will find that part of the Protocols of Z.
is reproduced in the book Behold the Pale Horse by Cooper. You better
hope this information is not true and I'm not saying it is true or
false but if it is true then we are in trouble. This information is
bad stuff.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Quote
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 93 06:45:36 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: To quote a great thinker in a Net far, far away, WE ARE
HERE TO FIND OUT WHY WE ARE HERE. Now how about that?
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Date: 30 Jan 1993 17:46:30 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>An injured hunter thought he was stuck when he stumbled
>into a rocky ravine, but his life was saved by UFO doctores who whisked  him
>up into their space ship - and performed hip replacement surgery on him!

Good thing he had his HMO Blue card.  Only cost him five bucks!

Couldn't resist.

--E.V.L. ([e-mail])  # "Aw, did I hurt your feelings?  ...good!
a.k.a.:  The Eternal Newbie,  # This is all part of my master plan."
The Amazing Tubeman!,         # --Don Karnage
Murphy's Law Incarnate        #
Any similarities between what I say and what I mean are purely coincidental.
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: beliefs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 93 20:51:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 33


    [e-mail] (Adrian Jenkin) writes:
    A very fascinating equation and one which ties closely into my
    interests in Aliens.  Could you tell me where I might find out
    about this Drake equation?


... well, here's a couple of books.  There are bound to be others; the
Drake theories have been around since the early 1960's:

AUTHOR: Bova, Ben, and Preiss, Byron, ed.
TITLE:  First Contact: The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
    NAL Books - Penguin Group, New York, 1990
    QB54 F48 1990


... part of the book is an excellent discussion of the equation (it
even includes a self-congratulatory passage by Drake himself), along
with extensions to it.  And:


AUTHOR:  Blum, Howard, 1948-
TITLE:   Out there : the government's secret quest for extraterrestrials / Ho>
PUBLISHER New York : Simon and Schuster, c1990.

... which has a passage about the Drake equation, and Philip
Morrison's "Order of the Dolphin" in it.  (Actually, the passage is
quite good, but its sort of dropped into the middle of the book, which
makes the flow of the story told stop dead in its tracks.)

   Both books, being recent, should be get-able.

Charles
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government coverups
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 93 20:55:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 11


    [e-mail] (sorgatz) writes:
     The real issue is one of CONTROL. As it is government is
    losing control, the populace is beginning resent being treated
    as government-wealth slaughter! [etc]

... whatever might happen, I suspect that your particular prejudices
would be as destroyed as you gleefully expect to happen to others.
Be careful what you wish for...

Charles
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: How To Contact Good Type UFO.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1993 21:09:28 GMT
Lines: 37

Brad Kepley ([e-mail]) wrote:
: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:
: >Brad Kepley ([e-mail]) wrote:
: >
: >: That reminds me of a continuing disussion we had with a scientist (well,
: >: that's what he called himself) who tended to buy whole hog, all the
: >: weird stories....UFO's...men in black...crop circles...alien abductions...
: >: brain implants...etc.  He kept quoting from his favorite book on the
: >: subject(s).  Someone finally got a hold of the book and in the footnotes
: >: the sources turned out to be things like The National Enquirer.
: >
: >Interestingly enough, I saw a special about the crop circles on PBS a couple
: >of weeks ago.  I don't believe the UFO theory, but I'll be damned if I can
: >think of an explanation.
: >
: >Not that I'm losing sleep over it, mind you... ;)
:
: It must have been a pretty old tape.  The scientists who originally
: started the study of the phenomena solved the problem several months
: ago when they managed to catch the perpetrators in the act on film.
: It was just some local teenagers, and they satisfied the researchers
: that they had been doing it all along.  That's what they reported in
: the local newspaper here...on an inside page of course.

I'm not interested in the claims of local teenagers for publicity's sake - what
I'm *really* interested in is how they convinced the researchers they were
doing it.  According to the PBS story, there were molecular structure changes
in the wheat that they were at a loss to explain.  The researchers themselves
tried to reproduce the crop circles via several methods, but were unable to.

I don't think that local teenagers would have access to technology necessary
to induce sub-micron molecular changes in wheat.
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177
(and the Gang of Four - Snowcat, Isis, Blackie, and Sandalwood the Rabbit!)

"It is your resistance to 'what is' that causes your suffering."   -- Buddha
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Announcement!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jan 93 22:35:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stig Atle Haugdahl) writes:
>I have become an *ibo!!

But have you become an ibo?

Remember that Scott "~ibo" Ramming is not an ibo but is an *ibo.

>Last night, a GReat LiviNg what-the-hECK MaStER
>came to me, bringing the joyful message that
>I have become an *ibo, a bibo in fact (level 14
>of 31).

Beep!

>The MaStER, whose name was Notsniw_-_Nhoj (it being
>pronounced something like Sarfattibartfast), said
>privileges were unlimited wisdom and power. No less.

So now that we have two Bibos running around, how will we tell you and
John_-_"Bibo"_-_Winston apart?

>Thought you would like to know.

Beep?
                        -- K.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13782 alt.alien.visitors:13081 sci.skeptic:37704
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From: [e-mail] (Brad Kepley)
Subject: Re: How To Contact Good Type UFO.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Adm)
Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1993 22:28:20 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:
>
>I'm not interested in the claims of local teenagers for publicity's sake - what
>I'm *really* interested in is how they convinced the researchers they were
>doing it.  According to the PBS story, there were molecular structure changes
>in the wheat that they were at a loss to explain.  The researchers themselves
>tried to reproduce the crop circles via several methods, but were unable to.
>
>I don't think that local teenagers would have access to technology necessary
>to induce sub-micron molecular changes in wheat.
>--

Way I heard it was that there was not any "sub-micron" molecular changes
after all that weren't simply typical.  Secondly, the films of these
kids making the circles have been shown on television recently on
"I Witness TV".

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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: SHC.
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1993 00:10:22 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: hello.humanoids.yak
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

> : SHC?  What's that??
> Spontaneous human combustion
> or savage humanoid carneval
shit happens ~constant
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Date: 31 Jan 1993 03:03:18 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:

>Dear Folks: Please don't hold me responsible for what my computer
>says after I quite typing.
>John Winston

Good heavens, Colonel, how did you ever manage to escape?


Mark
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Quote
Date: 31 Jan 1993 03:20:20 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:

>Dear Folks: To quote a great thinker in a Net far, far away, WE ARE
>HERE TO FIND OUT WHY WE ARE HERE. Now how about that?
>John Winston.

Can someone mail me an ftp site with the cheats list?  AdVaNCE IN ThanKS


I have xrated ftp site but i cant tell you e mail for trade


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From: [e-mail] (Richard Wilbur)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <1kfb1j$[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 93 01:46:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Lines: 124
NNTP-Posting-Host: starfish.cps.msu.edu

I had nothing to do with his windows crashing.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail] (Richard Wilbur)
From: [e-mail] (Brick Wilbur)
Path: starfish.cps.msu.edu!wilbur
Distribution: world
Followup-To: Truth about Philidelphia Exper.
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Subject: Philidelphia Experiment
Keywords:

I read the entire Philidelphia Experiment book.  Incredible book.
Incredible dates...Names...Places...dialogs...dates.

But, much to my chargrin (spelling).  It turns out that some of the info was

fabricated.   Some literary licensing by the author.

Apparently,  Bill Moore, filled in some blanks, changed some facts, and other
things in order to create a good book.

What exactly was not wholely true in the book I do not know.

I got this "inside" information from a Prof I once had who knows William Moore
personally.   This professor is one of the 6-7 researchers currently (and have
been for some time) investigating the Roswell crash in DETAIL.  Apparently, they
have uncovered info that has never been found before or disclosed.
They dont want to let any cats out of the bag because of feared Govt intervention.


Brick Wilbur

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail] (Richard Wilbur)
From: [e-mail] (Brick Wilbur)
Path: starfish.cps.msu.edu!wilbur
Distribution: world
Followup-To: Truth about Philidelphia Exper.
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Subject: Philidelphia Experiment
Keywords:

I read the entire Philidelphia Experiment book.  Incredible book.
Incredible dates...Names...Places...dialogs...dates.

But, much to my chargrin (spelling).  It turns out that some of the info was

fabricated.   Some literary licensing by the author.

Apparently,  Bill Moore, filled in some blanks, changed some facts, and other
things in order to create a good book.

What exactly was not wholely true in the book I do not know.

I got this "inside" information from a Prof I once had who knows William Moore
personally.   This professor is one of the 6-7 researchers currently (and have
been for some time) investigating the Roswell crash in DETAIL.  Apparently, they
have uncovered info that has never been found before or disclosed.
They dont want to let any cats out of the bag because of feared Govt intervention.


Brick Wilbur

Newsgroups: alt.         alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail] (Richard Wilbur)
From: [e-mail] (Brick Wilbur)
Path: starfish.cps.msu.edu!wilbur
Distribution: world
Followup-To: Truth about Philidelphia Exper.
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Subject: Philidelphia Experiment
Keywords:

I read the entire Philidelphia Experiment book.  Incredible book.
Incredible dates...Names...Places...dialogs...dates.

But, much to my chargrin (spelling).  It turns out that some of the info was

fabricated.   Some literary licensing by the author.

Apparently,  Bill Moore, filled in some blanks, changed some facts, and other
things in order to create a good book.

What exactly was not wholely true in the book I do not know.

I got this "inside" information from a Prof I once had who knows William Moore
personally.   This professor is one of the 6-7 researchers currently (and have
been for some time) investigating the Roswell crash in DETAIL.  Apparently, they
have uncovered info that has never been found before or disclosed.
They dont want to let any cats out of the bag because of feared Govt intervention.


Brick Wilbur

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail] (Richard Wilbur)
From: [e-mail] (Brick Wilbur)
Path: starfish.cps.msu.edu!wilbur
Distribution: world
Followup-To: Truth about Philidelphia Exper.
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Subject: Philidelphia Experiment
Keywords:

I read the entire Philidelphia Experiment book.  Incredible book.
Incredible dates...Names...Places...dialogs...dates.

But, much to my chargrin (spelling).  It turns out that some of the info was

fabricated.   Some literary licensing by the author.

Apparently,  Bill Moore, filled in some blanks, changed some facts, and other
things in order to create a good book.

What exactly was not wholely true in the book I do not know.

I got this "inside" information from a Prof I once had who knows William Moore
personally.   This professor is one of the 6-7 researchers currently (and have
been for some time) investigating the Roswell crash in DETAIL.  Apparently, they
have uncovered info that has never been found before or disclosed.
They dont want to let any cats out of the bag because of feared Govt intervention.


Brick Wilbur
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Bob)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jan 93 12:20:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: a gora
Lines: 2


  Crop circles are fake.
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From: [e-mail] (Alin-Andrei Carsteanu)
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1993 22:55:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: shr01.icaen.uiowa.edu
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>This appeal to intuition is unfounded and leads you to an incorrect.
>The explanation of burning body fat was proposed for cases that had
>very similar characteristics:
>  -the victim was likely to have lost consciousness, on a rug or
>   chair that could catch fire and burn hot enough to start 'melting'
>   the body
>  -the fire burned for many hours undiscovered, giving LOTS of time
>   to burn the body entirely
>  -in many cases there was EXTENSIVE damage to the room, indicating
>   a very hot and destructive fire.
>In these conditions, the fat will indeed ignite and burn hot enough
>to destroy the whole body.
>
It is not the "many cases" which are clear that are of interest, but the
few others.
Even in some of those cases where there was not much else burned, one may
argue a criminal action, using some substance to ignite the body. But
generalizing has not much value when we talk on a case-by-case basis.

>I know of no evidence of SHC in living people.  You're going
>to have to document that extraordinary claim.
>
If I go home in summer, I'll look up for the matter. There were several
cases, of which one at least even happened in the U.S.

>|> I would rather be cautious before jumping the conclusions.
>
>Good advice.  Take it.

To what? I didn't draw any conclusions - I rarely do, btw.

    Alin

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!icaen.uiowa.edu!acarstea
From: [e-mail] (Alin-Andrei Carsteanu)
Subject: Re: newsletter article
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1993 23:20:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: shr01.icaen.uiowa.edu
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa

In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>       A related question is, if the extraterrestrials know so much
>about human psyche, why can't they learn all about the human
>society of today by telepathic means. There is no reason for them
>to send any "delegation" to ask us about ourselves and to
>formally present themselves. They do not have to do that. They
>have shown that they are there and that they have superior
>technology, they roam in skies and over military bases with
>impunity, so why bother to declare themselves. We do not know
>their designs, but they are going about their business, and it is

Absolutely right, I guess. I basically re-posted this idea for those
who didn't have the patience to read the whole original article.
    Alin

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From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1993 16:41:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 18

According to [e-mail] (Ed Carp):
>Chip Salzenberg ([e-mail]) wrote:
>: [Don Allen] publicly posted that the Protocols were, and I quote,
>: ``DAMN specific'' about who were the people responsible for various
>: and sundry bad things in the world.  That statement could only come
>: from a person who considered the Protocols to be real.
>
>I thought that "Protocols" was long ago proven to be a fantasy cooked up
>by the Nazis to justify mistreatment of Jews before and during WWII - or
>has this dead horse surfaced yet again?

As I recall, the Nazis didn't invent the Protocols, but they did use
them as a propaganda tool.  And yes, they have been proven fakes.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagels to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
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Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1993 16:47:32 CST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joe Bob) says:
>
>  Crop circles are fake.
The previous statement is fake.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Anna Anderson)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Organization: Home Improvement
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1993 21:45:18 GMT
Lines: 9

[e-mail] (Joe Bob) writes:
>  Crop circles are fake.

A 'fake' assumes the existence of an 'original', therefore your statement
should correctly be"

     Some crop circles are fake, and
     at least one crop circle is not fake.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Ron Joffe)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1993 23:47:19 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Anna Anderson) writes:
> [e-mail] (Joe Bob) writes:
> >  Crop circles are fake.
>
> A 'fake' assumes the existence of an 'original', therefore your statement
> should correctly be"
>
>      Some crop circles are fake, and
>      at least one crop circle is not fake.
>

So would a more proper way of expressing the sentence " Crop circles are fake."
be:

    Crop circles are man-made
    therefore whoever claims otherwise is a fake

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Anna Anderson)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Organization: Home Improvement
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 03:11:48 GMT
Lines: 12

[e-mail] (Ron Joffe) writes:

> So would a more proper way of expressing the sentence
> " Crop circles are fake." be:
>    Crop circles are man-made
>    therefore whoever claims otherwise is a fake

Only if omniscient, otherwise:

    Crop circles are man-made [in my opinion]
        therefore whoever claims otherwise is a fake [in my opinion]

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From: [e-mail] (Otto-Ville Ronkainen)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Announcement!
Date: 31 Jan 1993 19:43:26 GMT
Organization: L{nsi-Uudenmaan Keisarillinen Polyteknillinen Koulu
Lines: 14
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stig Atle Haugdahl) writes:
>>I have become an *ibo, a bibo in fact (level 14

>So now that we have two Bibos running around, how will we tell you and
>John_-_"Bibo"_-_Winston apart?

D0 U U5E A VIC-2O 0R WHAT? J0N=-="B1B0"=-=WINSTON 15 CAPITOLIZED, THE
OTHER 1 IS N0T!!!11!!

(I mean, even B1FF should be intelligent enough to know the difference.)
--
Ott-Vill R______________________       Wo ein Wille ist, ist auch ein Weg.
[e-mail]                      Miss{ Wille on, on my|s tie.
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From: [e-mail] (Marketta Pajula)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Nowadays even crop itself is fake.


Olli Pajula
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From: [e-mail] (L GENE BATTIN)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Anna Anderson) writes...
>[e-mail] (Ron Joffe) writes:
>
>> So would a more proper way of expressing the sentence
>> " Crop circles are fake." be:
>>    Crop circles are man-made
>>    therefore whoever claims otherwise is a fake
>
>Only if omniscient, otherwise:
>
>    Crop circles are man-made [in my opinion]
>        therefore whoever claims otherwise is a fake [in my opinion]
>

Nah, should be:

    _Some_ crop circles are man-made [in my opinion]
    _on_at_least_one_side_!

Gene, the logician
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 14:39:55 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:

>park in handicapped spaces, and waste enormous amounts of bandwidth
>in inappropriate newsgroups with your pompous, arrogant, and
>condescending pseudo-intellectual drivel.  Enjoy it, Peter, you've
>earned it!

  As I said earlier, I have made plenty of postings to this
  newsgroup on "relevant" topics and gotten few followups, but
  on this "irrelevant" topic I've gotten many followups.  So
  maybe the "irrelevant" nature of this topic is in your own
  mind -- obviously it's relevant to many of the readers here.

---peter

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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Survey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 93 09:41:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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I would like to pose a question to the a.a.v users.  The idea of instrumentation and measurement of the UFO phenomenon comes up when we discuss how to do "real science" in determing what UFOs are.  What should we be attempting to measure and how would we go about doing it, including what types of instruments could be used to acquire the data.

Thoughts, ideas?

Thanks,

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: SHC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 93 17:56:28 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Folks: I believe you will find that SHC happens when people are
young or old, smokers and non-smokers, fat, normal and slim people.
Some people have it happen to them when they are dancing with someone
else or sitting in a wheel chair. It happen in all sorts of cases.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 93 18:15:45 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Folks: The last thing I type each time is John Winston, except
this time.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 93 18:11:39 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Ones: I believe you will find that the word Great White Brotherhood
is a very good thing. J. C. was a member. I once asked Sister Thedra
if only white people were members of the Great White Brotherhood and
she said that all races were members. The word white is used to denote
purity. The swastika is also a good thing and it was used by the
American Indians also.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13795 alt.alien.visitors:13102 sci.skeptic:37753
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From: [e-mail] (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 15:24:30 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>So I think SHC is not something these people want to discuss, and that
>there is something being hidden from us. I don't think people will
>usually burn without a LOT of help...
>
>1) Microwave beams?
>2) Other radiation sources? Xrays?
>3) High Fever?

Did the NOva special discuss the 'wicking' theory?

This proposes (for those not in the know), that clothing on the victim acts
as a 'wick' for the body fat/grease burning at a slower rate.  Since the
SHC victims are (allegedly) typically overweight/obese, this claims to
provide enough burning time to consume all flesh.



--
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) [phone]
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection"
Position:  Goalie               |
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Nasty Remarks
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
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Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 17:47:54 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
>
>Topic 279:  Mad Scientists II
># 12: Epigone of Koestler (rcl)      Mon, Sep 14, '92  (17:58)
>16 lines
>
>Praising Sarfatti in front of his face certainly won't alter his
>character for better or worse, so let me say this. He strikes me
>as one of those unusual American originals, The Existential Hero.
>Such people don't often exist outside the fiction of Hemingway or
>Mailer. Perhaps Sarfatti has drunk deeply of the Mailerian spring.
>Whatever drew him into this way of life, the fact remains that
>he's obeying Nietzsche's maxim, live dangerously; and he's
>pursuing Whitehead's ideal of the Adventure of Ideas. This he is
>doing not as an insensate sleepwalker, but fully conscious and
>aware of the dangers he runs and the glories he might gain.
>
>Too bad that some blockheads among us writhe with envy at the
>spectacle of a gifted soul aiming at stardom, and who spit gall
>rather than applaud a trapeze artist flying high, netless, over
>marble.

           Yes. And he's modest, too. So *many* virtues!

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!


     "Mystical explanations are considered deep. The truth is that
      they are not even superficial."

                   - Friedrich Nietzsche    (The Gay Science: 126)
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From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Mysticism, Physics and Art
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
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Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 17:46:02 GMT
Lines: 14

From article <[e-mail]>, by gilly![e-mail] (Dave Fischer):
> [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
>
>>What is the New Physics? It is my personal complex art form blending real
>>physics with imaginary mystical vision bridging C.P. Snows "Two Cultures".
>>It is a "hybrid" "Glass Bead Game" of Magick without magic. Barbarians,
>
>                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Couldn't-a-said it better myself. It's *fictional*.

  What's fictional?  Art?  Physics?  Religion? What do you mean here?

-Max
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From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 18:30:03 GMT
Lines: 10


  All the 'fakers' were gathered together out in a field in the middle
  of England. There, they were ionized using high intensity microwave
  energy, thus leaving the telltale 'circle'.  So, I believe the correct
  statement is:

    Crop circles are fakers. (posthumously, of course)

-Max Elliott

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From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Subject: Re: Mysticism, Physics and Art
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
=>...
=>It is a "hybrid" "Glass Bead Game" of Magick without magic. Barbarians,
=>hacks, mediocrities, rednecks, apparachiks, and other one-dimensional
=>uncultured creatures, comfortable with shadows on the wall of the cave,
=>react with fear, anger and rage when they gaze upon its Illumination.

Y'know, I had just that reaction when *they* brought back Lavalamps...
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Cursor Speaks Out!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 93 21:47:18 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, Rich Payne wrote:
>
>> Detection of a wobble by photographic means has always seemed a bit
>> suspicious to me. It seems that the error must exceed the magnitude
>> of the wobble. Perhaps use of CCDs would reduce the errors. This is
>> something about which I have doubts, can anyone confirm the innacuracies
>> present in photographic detection?
>
>I would just like to point out that Photographic film can be made to a much
>higher resolution than can reasonably be stored in any sort of electronic
>device, or indeed produced by CCDs.

Yes, this is true. But for some unexplainable reason, it is fashionable
to use high speed film in astrophotography. And generally, the faster
the film, the less the reolution. Also add in image blurring caused by
atmospheric distrubances, thermal settling of the mirror, tracking errors
for long exposures, etc... and you will not get lithographic resolution
for faint stars.

CCDs have good sensitivity, and can be scanned in milliseconds, allowing
for time resolution unattainable in photos. Because of this, I feel they
would be better than film for determining positions.

>                                          It has since been pointed out that
>such detection, as mentioned, is not done photographically.  This means that
>CCDs are also out.

I believe this is how the wobble in Barnards star was detected.

>Yours,
>Trevor.


Rich

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davies) writes:
|> >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
|> >>One of them is spontaneous human
|> >>combustion. If you ever figure out what causes that one let me know.
|>
|> >The book "The Fringes of Reason" has a pretty good chapter on spontaneous
|> >combustion.  The basic conclusion was (body fat) + (cloth) + (spark) = (candle),
|> >i.e. a dead person with a lit cigarette lying on a rug would keep smoldering
|> >until all of their body fat was consumed, so that when they were discovered
|> >later there would just be a pile of ashes on a burnt carpet.
|>
|> Several experimenters have tried rolling up fatty meat in cloth and
|> trying to light it. None have succeeded,

Please.  This "experiment" has nothing at all to do with people falling
asleep in bed or similar real world situations.

|> Of course any medieval witch burner or modern crematorium operator
|> could have told him it wouldn't work.

And they would be wrong.

|> It takes a LOT of high quality
|> fuel to consume a human body. If the fuel runs out too soon you get
|> big meaty bits left over.  And there are plenty of photos just as you
|> describe -- people burnt to fine ashes without much else being burnt.

Try to pay attention to what people are telling you:  human fat is
a good fuel.  Under certain circumstances, NOT including rolling meat
in cloth, burning at the stake, an funeral cremation, a human body can
be burned completely in its own fat.  Perhaps you should refer to
the article noted above instead of repeating your unsupported and
irrelevant tales of the unexplained.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm) writes:
|> >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davies) writes:
|> >>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
|> >>>One of them is spontaneous human
|> >>>combustion. If you ever figure out what causes that one let me know.
|> >
|> >
|> >Of course any medieval witch burner or modern crematorium operator
|> >could have told him it wouldn't work. It takes a LOT of high quality
|> >fuel to consume a human body. If the fuel runs out too soon you get
|> >big meaty bits left over.  And there are plenty of photos just as you
|> >describe -- people burnt to fine ashes without much else being burnt.
|>
|> I think this is pretty accurate.

You are wrong.

|> I watched Nova, and was unimpressed with
|> their treatment of SHC. It was much like the Nova for JFK; "this
|> is the MI5 and CIA, and we want you to believe...this". That's the
|> impression I get when I see that show.

Hmm.  Apparently no amount of evidence will sway you if it comes from
a credible source.  Perhaps you should check out the facts rather
than basing your conclusions on your impressions or lack thereof.

|> So I think SHC is not something these people want to discuss, and that
|> there is something being hidden from us. I don't think people will
|> usually burn without a LOT of help...

Your intuition is incorrect.  And, in fact, lots of people are talking
about it, in case you hadn't noticed.

|>
|> 1) Microwave beams?
|> 2) Other radiation sources? Xrays?
|> 3) High Fever?

Myth.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
From: [e-mail] (Alan Moorman)
Sender: [e-mail]
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Intellgent(?) entertainm
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1993 10:40:04 -0600
Lines: 23

Subj: Star Trek: Deep Space Nin      Conf: (77) Alt.Alien.Vi
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
PN>  Using your line of reasoning, one could probably find a starting
  >  off point for a perfectly intelligent discussion in Lost In Space,
  >  Gilligan's Island, or even a Usenet posting.   But this is not to
  >  say that these things are, in and of themselves, intelligently
  >  thought out, insightful, or cogent -- only that some theme, plot
  >  element, or phrase inspired or stimulated actual thought on the
  >  part of a viewer.

But isn't that the Actual Value of good entertainment????

In the guise of some "mindless" entertainment (which appeals to lots of
people because of simplistic common denominators) one starts a couple
of thought patterns or ideas, and then leaves them sort-of open-ended,
or only vaguely completed, so each viewer can let the ideas resonate
to some kind of completion with aspects of their particular life, if
they're so inclined.

Rocky
___
 X QMPro 1.01 41-8616 X Pro Wrestling is real if you think it is real...

From: [e-mail] (Alan Moorman)
Sender: [e-mail]
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Star Trek: Deep Space Ni
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1993 10:50:06 -0600
Lines: 26

Subj: Star Trek: Deep Space Nin      Conf: (77) Alt.Alien.Vi
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
JLS>Not only that, but the aliens debate among themselves as to whether they
   >should destroy the human character.  Why would aliens who do not exist in
   >linear time need to debate what they are *going to do*?  Why would they
   >worry about what *might* happen if they let the guy live if the past,
   >future and present are all the same to them?  What the hell would an
   >individual's "destruction" mean to such beings anyway?  The writers could
   >not even deal with the most immediate consequences of their premise.  The
   >whole thing was just silly.

Yes, but...
(and I'm sure this isn't really a news flash!)

You just have to accept that about ST/STDS9.  That's the way they are.

You like a series (it stimulates and entertains) or you don't like a
series (it's boring and childish).

It's that simple.

Rocky
___
 X QMPro 1.01 41-8616 X ++ ++ Hey Rocky, watch me pull a tagline outta this
hat!

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From: [e-mail] (John Riley)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: CompuSci, Inc
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 23:27:35 GMT
Lines: 10

[e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
>
> Peter:
> As a Charter Member of the Ninety Caliber Club, it is my privilege and
> honor to bestow ... you ...
> ... condescending pseudo-intellectual drivel.  Enjoy it, Peter, you've...

beware of astronomical geeks bearing telescoping tubules.


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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hey folks....
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 93 00:12:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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There is no "next chapter" ... that's all he wrote.

I saved the file if there is interest I will repost

Len
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 23:59:48 GMT
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Greig) writes:
>
>Protocols predates Hitler's Nazis although he certainly referred to
>the document and its authenticity. Supposedly written at a graveyard
>in Poland some time about the turn of the century -- maybe someone can
>be more exact.

Yes, it's said to be a forgery by the Czarist secret police. Certainly
it reads as if this were true. It tries to make people think 'the Jews
are your enemy, but the Aristocracy is your friend'.

>Anyone have a copy (in English) they could email me (or post)?

No, but they're in Bill Cooper's book "Behold a Pale Horse."
(He says, however, that the references to "the Jews" really mean
"the Illuminati"!)
--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!


     "Mystical explanations are considered deep. The truth is that
      they are not even superficial."

                   - Friedrich Nietzsche    (The Gay Science: 126)
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Thanks everybody
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 93 14:25:36 GMT
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Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University
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Nntp-Posting-Host: ind.csc.liv.ac.uk
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]



--I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who sent me details
of how to use my kill file. I can now look forward to life without Jack Sarfatti
and John Winston. If Peter Nelson continues to put the subject of UFOs down in
a non-constructive manner, he will join them in the file (not a very good threat
I know, but it'll do!).

While I'm here, can anyone recommend any good UFO/paranormal organisations
(apart from Flying Saucer Review)?


  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Penn State UFO Discussion Group
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 93 23:17:07 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 24

The Penn State UFO Discussion Group will hold its first meeting this
semester on Wednesday, February 24th, 1993 at 7:00 pm, 327 Sackett Building,
University Park Campus.  Our guest speaker is T.  Scott Crain, local area
director of MUFON and author of "UFOs, MJ-12 and the Government Cover-up".
The topic is "The Cash/Landrum Radiation Report", military secret or
extraterrestrial craft?

For more information on becoming a member of the group, please contact Janet
Smith at [phone] or write to me at [e-mail].  You may also
snail mail me at 123 Ramblewood Road, Pennsylvania Furnace, PA, 16865.

Admission and membership is free.  We are also looking for volunteers to
help with this and other future events.

Information for purchasing Scott's book can be obtained through MUFON itself
(sorry, I don't have their address), or if you send me a self-addressed,
stamped envelope I will send you an order form.  I believe the price is
$22.50.  I'm not pushing the book, just thought I'd head off some inquiries.

Linda Moulton Howe is coming to Penn State on March 20th.  She will do her
presentation and speech at 102 Forum Building from 1:00 - 5:00 pm.  Please
contact me for more info.  There is NO Admission FEE!

Janet L.  Smith President, Penn State UFO Discussion Group
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Linda Moulton Howe at Penn State University
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 93 23:30:39 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Lines: 12

Linda Howe is coming to Penn State University to conduct a symposium on
March 20th, 1993, 102 Forum Building, University Park Campus, 1:00 - 5:00
pm.  Admission is FREE!!!  She is going to do a 2 1/2 hour combination
video/slide presentation on Cattle Mutilations, Abductions, the Government
cover-up and crop circles.

For more information contact Janet Smith at [e-mail] or call
[phone].  You may also snail mail me at 123 Ramblewood Road,
Pennsylvania Furnace, PA, 16865.

Janet Smith
President, Penn State UFO Discussion Group
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Alin-Andrei Carsteanu)
Subject: Re: Survey
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1993 01:47:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: r_ihr01.icaen.uiowa.edu
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>I would like to pose a question to the a.a.v users.  The idea of instrumentation and measurement of the UFO phenomenon comes up when we discuss how to do "real science" in determing what UFOs are.  What should we be attempting to measure and how would we go about doing it, including what types of instruments could be used to acquire the data.
>
>Thoughts, ideas?
>
Measurements have actually been done at alleged "landing" sites. They
include common physical magnitudes, such as soil temperature, moisture,
radiation, and, in a more qualitative sense, observable effects on living
beings. The problem with those things is that they obviously are secondary
effects, and therefore of little relevance to the nature of the phenomenon.

If one wants to see a complete measurements protocoll, I guess any
serious UFO study group has one. I've seen a pertinent one from the
GEPAN/SEPRA in France, but still, the above mentioned limitations are
not beaten.
    Alin


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From: [e-mail] (Marketta Pajula)
Subject: Re: Stonehenge Crop Circle
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
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I hope the late fakers don't fertilize the wheat too much.


Olli Pajula
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From: roelle@uars_mag.jhuapl.edu (Curtis Roelle)
Subject: Re: Sightings
Message-ID: <roelle.728600993@uars_mag>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date:  1 Feb 93 21:09:53 GMT
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[e-mail] writes:

>Dear Earthians: Boy, you should have watched Sightings on TV last
>niht (friday). You would think I wrote the script. It was about
>Bud Hopkins talking about adbuctions, Stanton Friedman talking about
>government coverups, and Groom Lake UFOs. I'm telling you it was
>marvelous, marvelous.
>John Winston.

Yes, and it was a real hum dinger of a hoot, too.  Some guy being
interviewd videotaped in what resembled near-IR to apparently protect
his identity -- a reported top govornment agent, discussng technology
transfer with the Alien.

Regrettably my 7 year old watched it too and unfortunately found it a
disturbing program.  She turned her back to the screen and explained
that she was becoming frightened.  It wasn't the first hand abduction
stories in themselves that caused her fear, but rather the detailed
Hollywood graphics that accompanied them (which I found quite
hilarious).  Some of these depicted lizard-like "beings" passing
through bedroom walls and carrying sleeping abductees to waiting
spacecraft.

I'll be alert next time and make sure she doesn't watch the program
again.  The last time she was disturbed by a T.V. show was years ago
on STNG in an episode where some characters were shown devouring
handfuls of creepy crawley bugs and worms.  It was at least two years
before she could watch the program without leaving the room when the
opening credits came on.  Before that, we always enjoyed watching it
together, as we do again now.

There was another fictional show on this weekend -- I don't remember
the name (Beach or Surfsde or something), where a cult group, mostly
veteran abductees, gathered on the beach with telescopes and satellite
dish antennae to await the arrival of their masters.  This show DID
remind me of John :-).

In one scene a vortex formed in the ocean, from natural causes, and
the crowd swam into it, much to the dismay of the lifeguards.  Seeing
those ET groupies [who were depcted as well, absent minded], and their
telescopes, including a C-11 or C-14, and a nice refractor or two,
made me wonder what that program did for the public image toward
astronomers.

Curt Roelle
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: SHC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 93 14:58:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 8

Dear Folks: I should have said, It happens quite often or something
like that. I believe you will find the SHC stands for Spontaneous
Human Combustion a phenomena that happen and people burn up with
no apparent cause. After it happens then most people stand around
and deny that it happened in the first place. It's a good thing to
look into so that you can learn that we are not as smart as we
might think.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO Study Group.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 93 15:09:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 5

Dear People: I believe you will find that the Finns are ahead of
us by one day. I hope that Ollie will be so kind as to explain
to us his goup that has been organized over in Finland. It sounds
like a good organization.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Correction
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Feb 93 15:16:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Everybody: When I typed the word energby I meant energy. That
sounds like pig-latin sort of like Bigfootb.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: UFO TV SHOW
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  1 Feb 93 08:39:28 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 34

Subject: New Space Show.
  Those of you that don't believe in watching TV and it will warp you mind
will not be interested in knowing that another show is coming out about
living in space. Here's some information about it......A LONG, long, time
ago in a galaxy far away, two new syndicated sci-fi shows - Deep Space Nine
and Babylon 5 - were rocketing to the top of the TV ratings with plots so
similar they could've been cloned from the same Klingon!
  The inevitable collision resulted in a red-hot star war between two eager
empires, Paramount and Warner Brothers - and the plot began to thicken.
  Babylon 5 creator Joe Straczynski claims he gave Paramount first dibs on his
project back in 1988, but the studio nixed the idea. So Joe says he took the
concept to Warner Brothers, which invited him to do the pilot for Babylon 5.
  Soon, Deep Space Nine, a Star Trek spinoff produced by Paramont, was
blasting through the Hollywood ether with almost  the same storyline - a
giant space station plays home to an assortment of aliens and creepy
critters.
  Despite the striking similarities, Deep Space Nine's executive producer Rich
Berman is saying his show's unique. But if you ask us, you can't tell the
aliens without a score card.
  Here are the things that a similar; The plot of both shows revolves around
life aboard a huge space station located near a "wormhole" that's used as a
shortcut to other worlds. Deep Space Nine is under the control of Commander
Sisko, Babylon 5 is under the control of Commander Sinclair,(or that may be
backwards). DS9 is populated by an assortment of humans and oddball aliens
who can barely tolerate each other. B5 is the same. DS9 The space station
set features a bar, a casino and a bazaar where smugglers, thieves, hookers
and hoods hang out. B5 is the same. The gal second-in command defends the
space station against attack from her post on the bridge in the pilot
episode. Same for B5.
JW So it appears that some years we are fed cowboy shows, next Doctor shows.
next police shows and now it is Sci=fi shows. I like them better anyway.
Source of Information: Some tabloid magazine that I've don't have the name of
anymore.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Abductions.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 93 13:36:24 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 19

Subject: Bud Hopkins.
  I recently read something in a tabloid magazine and lost the article but I
did find an abbreviated version of the incident in another more established
magazine so here is how the information went; ......UFO ABDUCTION. If the
following story is true, this could be the biggest UFO case of the century.
  At the 1992 MUFON  Conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico, Budd Hopkins
disclosed that a woman, Linda Cortile (not her real name), was allegedly
abducted from her 12th-floor apartment building in New York City.
  Not only that, but her abduction was witnessed by several people.  One of
those was supposedly Javier Perez de Cuellar, former Secretary General of
the United Nations. Ostensibly, the abduction event was staged for this
man's benefit.
  In addition to de Cuellar, his two agents, Dan and Richard, also in the car,
witnessed the alleged event, as did a woman driving across the Brooklyn
Bridge.  Stay tuned to FATE for more information. This is proving to be an
explosively controversaial case, and we will keep you informed.
JW, So there you have part of the story.
Source of Information: January 1993/FATE page 9.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Blackout.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 93 13:38:18 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 50

Subject: Blackout.
  While Rama was talking to Charles Silva he asked her about the following
question about the blackout a few years back. Here is how it went; ..."Rama,
I have all kinds of questions about UFOs. The first thing I want to know is
about the power backout we had in November, 1965, in the northeastern part
of the United States. Did you have anything to do with it?"
  "Not me personally, but "us," yes. It was a strategy, sort of a test. I'll
tell you more about it when  I talk about our activities in this world. We
thought something like that would be the best and quickest way to get your
interest."
  "When that happened, I was in New York. I followed all the news coverage. I
had a very special interest in it because at the time I thought it might be
communistic sabatage, or a conspiracy to take over the country. Even months
later, when everyone seemed to have forgotten about it, including the ones
who were investigation it, I was still intrigued by this mysterious event.
Once in a while I'd think about it and wonder what could cause a power
failure of such magnitude. Nothing was broken,  very few people were hurt;
yet not one seemed capable of finding or repairing the damage. No one ever
came up with a sensible explanation for the failure, either; the lights just
came back on seven hours later.
  "Your say it was some kind of test?"
  "Yes, a strategy, an experiment, just as you are."
  "I'm an experiment" You said that once before. Just what exactly do you
mean?"
  "The time has come; we find it necessary to establish contact with a number
of people on this green, water planet."
JW So that was Rama's explanation. Now let me tell you what my teacher
(Merelle) told me about it and I read it in a book that I have now lost.
Here is the story as best I remember it. .....Some space people from the
planet called Korina and who called themselves Korindians were sitting
around in an underground base in the NE part of the US. They were discussing
a problem of the USA having a power system that could be knocked out by a
foreign power like Russia by just knocking out certain power plants and
those plants putting a load on the grid system that would knock out other
plants thus knocking out the whole grid system in the area.
  They wondered what to do. They thought about telling our leaders but they
realized that most leaders don't even believe that they (the space people)
even exist. So they decided to show us without hurting anyone. They had
their space crafts hover over different plants and cause some relays to
energize and simulate a power failure and then that whole grid system caused
the power to go out. After 7 hours they allow it to come back on.
  They then appeared outside of a famous TV stars (who I can't remember his
name) apartment building (or hotel) window a few stories above the ground
and told him to tell our government to install circuit breakers, fuses or
whatever so we wouldn't be able to be attacked easily by a foreign power. If
we didn't do it they would do it again. He told the government about it and
the changes were finally made.
  So that's the truth as far as I know it.
Source of Information: Date With the Gods by Charles Silva.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Tesla
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 93 14:42:10 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 69

Subject: Commander X.
   In the past I had been loaned a book called Underground Alien Bases and I
posted some information from it that would curl your hair. He now has
another book out that will darn your socks. Here is some information that
the book is said to talk about; this is commander X talking who is a former
military intellignece operative with an Above Top Secret clearance (at least
that is what he says).....In  my two previous books, The Ultimate Deception
and Underground Alien Bases, I described in full detail how the military
some years ago made a secret treaty with a group of extraterrestrials who
are now living on this planet and are actually using humans as guinea pigs
in a series of bizarre experiments taking place deep underground at various
locations in the southwest.
  Now I have decided to "spill the beans" once concerning an even more vital
matter that is being kept hidden from the American people and from the rest
of humankind, a matter that would put a permanent halt to the recession and
the hard times that have come to affect us all because of high taxes and the
control of selected goods, services, and products that are being priced out
of our reach by corporate greed.
  Before I go on, allow me to let you in on a few ghastly secrets that I am
sure will upset you as much as these revelations did me, when I first
discovered that:
  The Persian Gulf conflict never had to take place!
 There never was a need to lose one, single life over a war that was
essentially fought over the price of oil!
 Furthermore, the truth of the matter is that the United States military now
has at its disposal - and has had for  quite a number of years disc-shaped
or circular aircraft that are capable of flying three times higher and
faster than any jet fighter that is "officially" known to the public!  This
same aircraft can virtually dematerialize and rematerialize elsewhere in a
split second, as will as hover mere inches above the ground, thus
frightening the stuffings out of any real or potential enemy.
  Perhaps not so surprisingly, this very same aircraft utilizes a form of
energy that is, to our current way of thinking, "highly revolutionary," yet
it is so economical and readily available that the "forces that be" fear
each day that it may tilt the "balance of power" out of their hands and
radically change society overnight.
  By now, you may be curious to know what form this energy takes and where it
may be obtained from  You may also wonder why you have not heard of this
startling disclosure before now. The answers to such questions are very
simple:
  The energby is FREE ENERGY!
  It is available all around you-from the very air itself!
  And the reason you have not been told anytthing about it is because there is
a massive conspiracy afoot on the part of the military-industrial complex to
keep its existence an closely-guarded secret from the "masses of people" who
it is felt, should remain in total ignorance so that the "corpoprate
interest" can continue to rake in huge profits at the sake of life and
limb-mainly ours!
   Over a century ago, one of the greatest "free thinkers" of all time arrived
upon our cosmic shores in order to shape our technical and spiritual
destiny.
  Nikola Tesla came from another place to alert the world to impending danger
(World Wars 1 and 2), while at the same time offering "solutions" to our
problems and alternatives by which to greatly enhance our lives.
  Holder of over a thousand patents for many marvelous scientific inventions,
Tesla turned down millions of dollars in royalties as well as the Nobel
Prize because he did not believe "big business" and "corporate giants"
should control that which readily belongs to all of humanity.
  Because of his beliefs, Tesla was repeatedly harassed and his life
threatened. A true comic being, Tesla was dedicated to the advancement of
all, regardless of race, creed or religion. He was, in essence, the living
embodiment of peace and took the White Dove as his personal symbol. lived
his life to the fullest, yet died in virtual poverty when he could have been
one of the richest persons who ever lived.
JW. The new book is called Nikola Tesla-Free Energy and the White Dove, I
haven't read it yet.
Source of Information: An Advertisement in UFO UNIVERSE MAGAZINE. Spring 1993
page.32.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Talk To a UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  1 Feb 93 09:07:34 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 0

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Telepathy With Space People.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  1 Feb 93 09:09:34 PST
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References:  <[e-mail]>
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Subject: Telepathy.
  If your going to fool around with UFO I would recommend that you learn
telepathy or you might wind up on the menu. Here is some thought for food or
food for thought; ...STEP ASIDE,  Dr. Dolittle - Mary Austin Kerns really
CAN  talk to her animals, and they talk back!  Mary has the incredible
ability to communicate with her four  cats, three swans, 20 ducks, a turtle,
a dog, a horse, birds (JW  a partridge is a pear tree) and fish using
telepathy.
  "It's the same as when a mother knows her baby in another room is beginning
to fuss and needs attention," she explains.
  Animals thoughts have a pattern that is the equivalent of a soundless voice,
she says.
  Some people - like Mary - are able to receive and understand these patterns.
  She then sends off electromagnetic signals that animals can pick up and
understand in reply.
  Mary, of Seattle, Washington, discovered her amazing ability two years ago
when she was grieving for her dead parents,  She heard a voice urging her;
Do not weep for them. They are very happy for what you know. Go out and
teach."
  Then C.C., her deaf cat, surprised her when it jumped onto her lap and said;
"Hello."
  Mary believes it was an omen telling her to use her special gift to make the
would a better place - and that's exactly what she's doing.
  She now works as a pet therapist, helping pet owners with their problems
when other options have failed.
JW. Just lately Yogi my telepathic dog came into my room in the morning and
something or someone said to me, "Don't you think it's about time you were
waking up"?  It struck me as funny because it sounded like a very educated
person doing the talking. It may have been Yogi and then it may have been
someone else.
Source of Information: January 19,1993/EXAMINER.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Underground City Number 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  1 Feb 93 09:40:56 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 35

Subject: UFO Underground City.
  In the past I read something about an underground city. Here is how the
information went; ...A team of archaeologists probing ancient ruins in
Brazil have discovered an underground city that was inhabited by aliens
6,000 years ago!
  The shocking discovery was made by Dr. Jorge Tejero and his team of 20
college students who were searching for ancient artifacts in the mountains
near Sao Paulo.
  One of the students unknowingly came upon the underground city when he
stumbled down a steep 20-foot incline deep inside the damp and dark caves.
  Tejero and his students all descended down into the incline, into a large
chamber filled with pottery, jewels and four-foot skeletons.
 "I thought we had found ruins of an ancient civilization," says Tejero,"
until I realized that the skeletons were neither human beings or animals.
  "They had two fingers on each hand and three toes on each foot, and one
large ear protruding from their heads (JW, boy I would love to see that).
Their skulls were very large, and their eyes were set closer together than
humans."
  Startled by their unusal findings, the team probed further into the cave and
discovered transistor-like devices and communications equipment.
  "There is no doubt we've discovered an adavanced alien civilization that
thrived in ancient South America," says Professor Tejero.
  "Test on the structure and materials inside the cave show they could have
been living there 6,000 years ago!
  "These creatures were neither human beings nor their ape-like ancestors.
Their bodies are markedly different _ and there intelligences was light
years ahead of human beings.  their sophisticated communications equipment
lead us to believe that they were merely visiting earth from another galazy.
  "There have been many lost human civilizations throughout history, but this
is the first conclusive proof of a lost alien civilzation.
 "If we uncover the history of these ancient aliens, we will have a far
greater understanding of man's funciton in the universe." LOU TARRAGON.
Source of Information: March 13,1990 SUN-29.
JW So what do you think of that.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Thanks everybody
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1993 13:35:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:

>           If Peter Nelson continues to put the subject of UFOs down in
>a non-constructive manner, he will join them in the file

  "Non-constructive" = "anyone who actually demands *evidence*
  concerning claims of UFO's"


---peter
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Markowski)
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Service)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
|> >To study an extraterrestrial vehicle or crew would require a
|> >large and diverse group of scientists and engineers.  It's very unlikely
|> >that these would all be military sympathizers to the extent that they
|> >would seal this off from the world.  Someone would tell his wife or best
|> >friend or let it slip on his death bed, etc.
|>
|> This isn't intended as a flame, but it seems to me that something
|> is flawed in your reasoning here.  I think this is a Circular Argument
|> or something:
|>
|>    Somebody claims that X happened.
|>    Someone else says, "Don't be ridiculous.  If X had happened,
|>                        somebody would be _saying_ that X happened.
|>                        X is _too big_ to be kept secret."

Yes, I suppose I was unclear.  I meant that someone in the conspiracy would
come forward.  No matter how truthful a witness is, he will not be as
knowledgable as one of the supposed conspirators.  We'd need someone
relatively high in the conpiracy's control structure to come forward with
evidence, not just his word.

Imagine what a captured alien spacecraft would mean.  The best minds in
science and engineering working furiously to understand what they've found,
management to coordinate the effort including keeping it secret and deciding
who and how to relay information to, and spin off projects to test under-
standing of the new technology.  More and more projects to keep secret -
not impossible, but added difficulty.  Next, the project would be decades
old, so we'd have nearly entirley new crews of workers.  More difficulty in
maintaining secrecy.  All of this is possible but seems to me unlikely
compared to more earthly explanations.

Besides, why would an alien culture let the US have a technology advantage
over the rest of the world?  They'd probably show up and demand the
wreckage.  Maybe that's the real coverup - an empty workshop!  :-)

--
Mike Markowski
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: Re: Survey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1993 14:50:50 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
> I would like to pose a question to the a.a.v users.  The idea of instrumentation and measurement of the UFO phenomenon comes up when we discuss how to do "real science" in determing what UFOs are.  What should we be attempting to measure and how would we > go about doing it, including what types of instruments could be used to acquire the data.
>
Before you can think about instrumentation you would need to define what sort of
UFO's you are after.

For example, if you were after some way of instrumenting what Hynek called
Nocturnal Lights you would need different instruments to those you would need
for, say, instrumenting abductions. The simple case would be looking for
Nocturnal Lights. These constitute around 40 percent of all UFO reports.

If you consider that in a very good year there may be as many as 350 reports
for the whole of the United Kingdom, this would approximate to one report per
day. If you consider the UK as being a rectangle approx 250 wide by 600 miles
long, and a UFO may only be visible say 5 miles in any direction from an
observation point, the it would be divided in 25 by 60 - 10 mile square boxes.
This would give you a 1 in 1500 chance each day to see something providing you
observe continuously 24 hours in each day. And this makes no allowance for
dim objects, fog or just looking in the wrong direction at the wrong (?right?)
time!!

It would be quite an undertaking. You have to remember that over 90% of all
UFOs reported can be reasonably explained after investigation to be natural or
man-made objects/events.

I think the only feasable way of instrumenting things would be a series of
all sky cameras. The field of view of the cameras would need to overlap, so
you could triangulate the position of anything observed. The images would need
to be recorded on high definition video and preferebly time stamped. You might
consider having remote controlled cameras with telephoto lenses at sites. These
could be manually aimed and fired by an operator at your control centre if
anything unusual is seen. Some cameras linked to spectrographs might provide
information.

Radar may be useful. Also keeping a detailed check of weather might be useful.

The undertaking would be massive. You could always speak nicely to your local
military, who I am sure get up to all these kinds of things already.

Steve


--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Correction
Date: 2 Feb 1993 16:18:36 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:
>Dear Everybody: When I typed the word energby I meant energy. That
>sounds like pig-latin sort of like Bigfootb.
>John Winston.

Ob Kb Fabt Alberbt.
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Tesla
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
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[e-mail] writes:

>   Over a century ago, one of the greatest "free thinkers" of all time arrived
>upon our cosmic shores in order to shape our technical and spiritual
>destiny.
>  Nikola Tesla came from another place to alert the world to impending danger
>(World Wars 1 and 2), while at the same time offering "solutions" to our
>problems and alternatives by which to greatly enhance our lives.
>  Holder of over a thousand patents for many marvelous scientific inventions,
>Tesla turned down millions of dollars in royalties as well as the Nobel
>Prize because he did not believe "big business" and "corporate giants"
>should control that which readily belongs to all of humanity.

    As I read the story, while Tesla was brilliant in many ways, he
was NOT a businessman in any sense of the word.  The reason why Tesla
got very little in the way of royalties was because he sold off the
rights to most of his inventions to raise immediate cash for other projects.
Most of these "other projects" didn't pan out, and Tesla frequently found
himself short on cash.

    Turned down the royalties?  As hurting as he was for money much
of the time he would NOT have turned down royalties.  He went with open hands
to giants of business like J.P. Morgan and George Westinghouse looking
FOR money and backing.

    If Tesla really didn't believe in corporate giants, he'd never
have gone to them asking for cash.

Duane

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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Tesla
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology,misc.test,alt.conspiracy
Date: 2 Feb 1993 16:44:26 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:
>   In the past I had been loaned a book called Underground Alien Bases and I
>posted some information from it that would curl your hair. He now has
>another book out that will darn your socks.

Would you please post the information from the book that will press my collars
and mop my floors?  Also, my bed needs to be made.

>Here is some information that
>the book is said to talk about; this is commander X talking who is a former
>military intellignece operative with an Above Top Secret clearance (at least
>that is what he says).....In  my two previous books, The Ultimate Deception
>and Underground Alien Bases, I described in full detail how the military
>some years ago made a secret treaty with a group of extraterrestrials who
>are now living on this planet and are actually using humans as guinea pigs
>in a series of bizarre experiments taking place deep underground at various
>locations in the southwest.

Ah, so that's where the cheap labor you get with every book is coming from.

>  Before I go on, allow me to let you in on a few ghastly secrets that I am
>sure will upset you as much as these revelations did me, when I first
>discovered that:
[upsetting ghastly revelations deleted]

>  By now, you may be curious to know what form this energy takes and where it
>may be obtained from  You may also wonder why you have not heard of this
>startling disclosure before now. The answers to such questions are very
>simple:
>  The energby is FREE ENERGY!
>  It is available all around you-from the very air itself!
>  The Persian Gulf conflict never had to take place!
> There never was a need to lose one, single life over a war that was
>essentially fought over the price of oil!

My GOD! And ALL those DINOSAURS, WIPED OUT and BURIED UNDERGROUND to form
HUGE DEPOSITS OF OIL after MILENNIA, ALL FOR NOTHING!!!

>  And the reason you have not been told anytthing about it is because there is
>a massive conspiracy afoot on the part of the military-industrial complex to
                           ^
                           b
>keep its existence an closely-guarded secret from the "masses of people" who
>it is felt, should remain in total ignorance so that the "corpoprate
>interest" can continue to rake in huge profits at the sake of life and
>limb-mainly ours!

Keep this crap off alt.conspiracy.

>  Because of his beliefs, Tesla was repeatedly harassed and his life
>threatened. A true comic being, Tesla was dedicated to the advancement of
>John Winston.

I was going to add something between those last two lines, but they look so
_right_.

Mark

"That boy throws himself into everything.  Go find a deep well."
                                             --- Nikolai Tesla
                                                 A true comic being
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Telepathy With Space People.
Date: 2 Feb 1993 16:58:05 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:
>  If your going to fool around with UFO I would recommend that you learn

Do me a favor,
wear your hat,
so Jimmyyyyyyyyyyyyy
will have the opportunity to come back!
Ho!!

>  Mary, of Seattle, Washington, discovered her amazing ability two years ago
>when she was grieving for her dead parents,  She heard a voice urging her;
>Do not weep for them. They are very happy for what you know. Go out and
>teach."
>  Then C.C., her deaf cat, surprised her when it jumped onto her lap and said;
>"Hello."

Callous little ass-wipe.  At least C.C. could have said, "I'm sorry to hear
about your parents." or "EVERYBODY DANCE NOW!!!"

>  Mary believes it was an omen telling her to use her special gift to make the
>would a better place - and that's exactly what she's doing.
 ^^^^^
 GON TO HUNRED AKR WOULD
       BACKSON
         BISY
       BACKSON.
                 S.R.

>  She now works as a pet therapist, helping pet owners with their problems
>when other options have failed.

"It wouldn't hold still."

>John Winston.

Mark
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: California UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1993 18:52:17 GMT
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tony Zugates) writes:
>Brian, where in the desert are you seeing these....
>
>There was some info re: ufo's from area 51 on "sightings" i.e. developement
>of machines that will make 90 degree turns at mach etc... but these
>sightings are made from outside area 51 in Nevada, I believe.
>
>I am a relocated San Diego desert rat and until '84 spent a lot of time
>looking up while camped out, but I never saw anything from where I was
>which was anywhere from Joshua Tree to Buttercup valley areas...

There are a few "saucer museum" exhibits in the "Li'l Ale'le-Inn" (the
tiny restaurant/bar/motel nearest to "Area 51", along Nevada Route 375).

 In the text accompanying
one of them, the complaint is made that Sheriff so-and-so, and his
deputies, are out patrolling the roads of our county 365 nights a year,
yet they claim they've never seen *even one* UFO! This is taken to be
PROOF that the Sheriff's Department is part of the Great Conspiracy.

Of course, it's just *not possible* that there's really nothing out
there to be seen!



--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!


     "Mystical explanations are considered deep. The truth is that
      they are not even superficial."

                   - Friedrich Nietzsche    (The Gay Science: 126)
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From: [e-mail] (Brent Irvine)
Subject: Re: Tesla
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1993 19:11:03 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley) writes:
>>  The energby is FREE ENERGY!

Yes, and it will cost you $100,000,000,000 to get it!

>
>My GOD! And ALL those DINOSAURS, WIPED OUT and BURIED UNDERGROUND to form
>HUGE DEPOSITS OF OIL after MILENNIA, ALL FOR NOTHING!!!

No, THEY want you to burn oil and be under the power of THEIR companies
putting money into THEIR pockets.

>>  And the reason you have not been told anytthing about it is because there is
>>a massive conspiracy afoot on the part of the military-industrial complex to
>                           ^
>                           b
>>keep its existence an closely-guarded secret from the "masses of people" who
>>it is felt, should remain in total ignorance so that the "corpoprate
>>interest" can continue to rake in huge profits at the sake of life and
>>limb-mainly ours!
>
>Keep this crap off alt.conspiracy.

OH SURE.  You say that, probably because you are one of THEM.

:) :) :) :)
--
+-------------------------+--------------------------------+-----------------+
| Brent L. Irvine         | For a mere $50 these personal  | Ak! Its 1992 tax|
| [e-mail] | opinions can also be yours!    |  season! Yuck!  |
+-------------------------+--------------------------------+-----------------+
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Val
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Feb 93 00:25:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: alt
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 7

Subject: Val.
  You asked for the address of space people on Earth who you can write to so
here goes; .... Valient Thor (or Val as his friends call him) can be reached
by mailing a letter to him in care of Dr. Frank Stranges, 4617 Victory Blvd.
Suite 4, Van Nuys, Calif. 91411, [phone]. He has been good enough to
write me back through Mr. Stranges and Mrs. Stranges a few years ago.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Eric H. Bucher)
Subject: Taped Contact
Message-ID: <!9x3![e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: einstein.phys.rpi.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1993 22:01:39 GMT
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Keywords:


This Wednesday, Febuary 3, 1993, the television show Unsolved Mysteries will be showing a videotape of an unidentified flying object.  I thought that it would be of interest to the newsgroup.

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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: California UFO sighting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
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Scepticus Full of Hotairicus<writes>:


>>There are a few "saucer museum" exhibits in the "Li'l Ale'le-Inn" (the
>>tiny restaurant/bar/motel nearest to "Area 51", along Nevada Route 375).

>> In the text accompanying
>>one of them, the complaint is made that Sheriff so-and-so, and his
>>deputies, are out patrolling the roads of our county 365 nights a year,
>>yet they claim they've never seen *even one* UFO! This is taken to be
>>PROOF that the Sheriff's Department is part of the Great Conspiracy.

>>Of course, it's just *not possible* that there's really nothing out
>>there to be seen!


And of course if any of those in the Sherif's Dept. did see anything, you
would revert to the old "The DUMB HICK COP THING", no doubt. Holly
misidentification Glutious Maximus.......Swamp gas mabye,...no...no....can
you say temperature inversion, I knew you could....BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

The videos coming from that area indicate differently.

You will never learn....sigh:-( GO back to sleep..............

You know who!

Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$| The
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,| Nite
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."                  | Net
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$|
Knight
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Window Of Infinity.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  2 Feb 93 06:34:21 PST
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Dear Everybody: Things are going great. Kumar just sent me a game
called the Window of Infinity. It's a lot like an Ouija Board.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Serg.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  2 Feb 93 06:40:53 PST
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Dear Folks: I am now getting E-mail from a person in Russia who has
an Americanized name of Serg. I am glad to finally hear from the
people of Russia. Now I would love to hear from China and Japan.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Lady R.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  2 Feb 93 06:49:59 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Bigfooters:
I just had a person I shall call Lady R. E-mail me some information
from Canada. She has the ability to do Distant Viewing. She was able
to tell me a lot about myself just by doing this, as to how I looked,
my surroundings, the lamp I use by my computer and other things. She
was very good at it.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Thanks everybody
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 93 00:36:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
>
>>           If Peter Nelson continues to put the subject of UFOs down in
>>a non-constructive manner, he will join them in the file
>
>  "Non-constructive" = "anyone who actually demands *evidence*
>  concerning claims of UFO's"

If Peter continues to get the True Believers all riled up like this,
we're going to have to sign him up for CSICOP! (And maybe initiate him
into the Conspiratorial Brotherhood, as well!)     :)


--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!


     "Mystical explanations are considered deep. The truth is that
      they are not even superficial."

                   - Friedrich Nietzsche    (The Gay Science: 126)
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From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Mysticism, Physics and Art
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1993 15:48:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
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According to [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti):
>Barbarians, hacks, mediocrities, rednecks, apparachiks, and other
>one-dimensional uncultured creatures, comfortable with shadows on the
>wall of the cave, react with fear, anger and rage when they gaze upon
>its Illumination.

``How to Lose Friends and Make People Ignore You'', by Jack Sarfatti.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagels to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
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Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1993 20:51:55 EST
From: Pervaiz Mehmood <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALiens - Great WHITE? Brotherhood
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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> Terminologies makes no difference to the facts. And the fact is as
  described in the article. This is true Hitlor liked to call him self as Arian
> What is your openion about those races living in the subcontinent Pakistan &
  India ? These races were living in that area about 5K years ago, according to
  the archailigical discoveries in Mohanjodaro & Harpa in Pakistan.

        Pervaiz Mehmood
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Lady R.
Date: 3 Feb 1993 02:49:51 GMT
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Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:
>Dear Bigfooters:
>I just had a person I shall call Lady R.

Boy, that bondage woman sure gets around.

>E-mail me some information from Canada.

Well, it's a good time to play some hockey, eh?  Real cold, eh?

>She has the ability to do Distant Viewing.

Oh, that's _really_ impressive.  Hell, I can read your posts and I'm in
Cleveland.

>She was able
>to tell me a lot about myself just by doing this, as to how I looked,
>my surroundings, the lamp I use by my computer and other things. She
>was very good at it.

Damn... the Russkie menace collapses, and next thing you know, Canada is
putting spy satellites in orbit.  I guess the aliens decided they would rather
deal with Canada.  I think they didn't want their incredible imaging technology
abused by a superpower like the US.  They made the Hubble telescope for us,
which no one knew, but they sabotaged it when the government was going to turn
it around to get pictures of Princess Di nude wherever she was and blackmail
the UK into giving the US a majority investment in Hong Kong's lease renewal
where the only UFO manufacturing site (managed by extraterrestrials as a supply
base for their operations in this parsec) in the world is.

Somehow I doubt they'll have better luck.

"Have a beer, eh?"
"I can't metabolize it."
"You hoser!"  (turns on friendly E.T. with stolen technology)

I think human nature is at fault here.

>John Winston.


Mark

P.S. After all, aliens hate being horny.
From: [e-mail] (Roger Prokic)
Sender: [e-mail]
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Survey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1993 21:37:00 -0500
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I am an Instrumentation engineer on the Space Shuttles working for NASA.
I could suggest many instruments to collect real data on UFO's; however,
the catch is to collect data means that we have to place instruments on a
UFO...that's the catch...there's not much measuring that can be done
without the UFO to attach sensors and transducers on.


 * Freddie 1.3b4 * The first full-featured QWK reader for the Mac


 * Origin: E.I.L.C. BBS: Source For Information! 407-676-2998 (1:374/60)
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From: gilly![e-mail] (Dave Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Survey
Date: 3 Feb 1993 03:31:14 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

[e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:

>I would like to pose a question to the a.a.v users.  The idea of
>instrumentation and measurement of the UFO phenomenon comes up
>when we discuss how to do "real science" in determing what UFOs
>are.  What should we be attempting to measure and how would we

Number one priority: stop destroying witness credibility by using
hypnosis to "extract" information. Such data is as likely to come
from the hypnotist as from the witness.


------------------------ uunet!quack!gilly!dave ------------------------
================= Dave Fischer - Nature's Perfect Food =================
---------------------- [e-mail] ----------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: UFO Organisations (was: Thanks everybody)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1993 11:09:59 GMT
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:
>
>
> While I'm here, can anyone recommend any good UFO/paranormal organisations
> (apart from Flying Saucer Review)?
>
>      The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
>

Since you are in the UK, I would recommend the British UFO Research Association.
(But I would as I am a senior member of that organisation). It is the UK's
largest organisation.

The address is :-

    BUFORA, The Leys, 2c Leyton Road, Harpenden, Hertfordshire, AL5 2TL.

The address and description of a large number of groups worldwide is included
as part of the a.a.v FAQ.

Steve
--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Re: Tesla
Message-ID: <stone.728749838@cwis>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1993 14:30:38 GMT
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Regarding good ol' Tesla:

I've said it once before, and I'll say it here again: he was a genius
AND a fruitcake.  Tesla claimed he got some of his ideas telepathically
from "certain pidgeons".  Don't believe it?  Check out the book
"Empire of the Air" (a history of the men who made radio) iff'n you
doubt what I say......

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Any Info on 2/2 UFO sighting?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 93 17:44:46 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
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Nntp-Posting-Host: gold.colorado.edu

I heard a short mention on the news this morning about a UFO sighting
last night (2/2/93) over a large part of the midwest & eastern US.
Has anyone on a.a.v any details on this?  I have also heard that there
have been several sightings in Jefferson County Colorado lately, and
wondered if there was any info to be had on these.

Thanks!

Kellie M-S
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (glenn durden)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Survey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 93 13:15:07 +1100
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 24

[e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:

> I would like to pose a question to the a.a.v users.  The idea of instrumentat
>
> Thoughts, ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
> UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
> INTERNET: [e-mail]

How about a photograph that isnt blurry   :-)

Seriously though, would a spectrographic analysis of the light reflected
off one help to tell what they were made of?

.........................................................
glenn durden
[e-mail]  Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
The opinions expressed above are that of the author only.
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Abductions.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1993 18:33:48 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Subject: Bud Hopkins.
|>   I recently read something in a tabloid magazine and lost the article but I
|> did find an abbreviated version of the incident in another more established
|> magazine so here is how the information went; ......UFO ABDUCTION. If the
|> following story is true, this could be the biggest UFO case of the century.
|>   At the 1992 MUFON  Conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico, Budd Hopkins
|> disclosed that a woman, Linda Cortile (not her real name), was allegedly
|> abducted from her 12th-floor apartment building in New York City.
|>   Not only that, but her abduction was witnessed by several people.  One of
|> those was supposedly Javier Perez de Cuellar, former Secretary General of
|> the United Nations. Ostensibly, the abduction event was staged for this
|> man's benefit.
|>   In addition to de Cuellar, his two agents, Dan and Richard, also in the car,
|> witnessed the alleged event, as did a woman driving across the Brooklyn
|> Bridge.  Stay tuned to FATE for more information. This is proving to be an
|> explosively controversaial case, and we will keep you informed.
|> JW, So there you have part of the story.
|> Source of Information: January 1993/FATE page 9.
|> John Winston.

If you read something other than tabloids, you would have run across this
case quite a while ago.  Old Bud has been touting this whopper for a year
now, and its getting sillier and sillier.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 93 18:35:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Edinburgh University
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davies) writes:

>|> >The book "The Fringes of Reason" has a pretty good chapter on spontaneous
>|> >combustion.  The basic conclusion was (body fat) + (cloth) + (spark) = (candle),
>|> >i.e. a dead person with a lit cigarette lying on a rug would keep smoldering
>|> >until all of their body fat was consumed, so that when they were discovered
>|> >later there would just be a pile of ashes on a burnt carpet.

>|> It takes a LOT of high quality
>|> fuel to consume a human body. If the fuel runs out too soon you get
>|> big meaty bits left over.  And there are plenty of photos just as you
>|> describe -- people burnt to fine ashes without much else being burnt.

>Try to pay attention to what people are telling you:  human fat is
>a good fuel.  Under certain circumstances, NOT including rolling meat
>in cloth, burning at the stake, an funeral cremation, a human body can
>be burned completely in its own fat.  Perhaps you should refer to
>the article noted above instead of repeating your unsupported and
>irrelevant tales of the unexplained.

My unsupported and irrelevant claims come from a New Scientist
article, a TV documentary which in which a scientist noted for his
sceptical writings about SHC strangely failed on camera to repeat his
simple experiment which showed how it was simply a hot fat wicking
effect, and a retired fireman who now tours fire stations giving
slide-illustrated talks on SHC instances discovered by firemen.

The remarks about the "Fringes of Reason" book cited above make it
sound rather silly. I've seen one book debunking SHC which does so by
quoting the successful experiments of the above scientist, who has
since been shown to be a fraud -- i.e., so sure he was right that he
hadn't bothered to do the experiments he claimed to have done!  But,
at your recommendation, I'm willing to check it out, if you will
supply me the name of author and publisher.

It's a shame you couldn't actually explain to us what these special
circumstances are. Have you forgotten?
--
Chris Malcolm    [e-mail]          [phone]
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Segey U.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  3 Feb 93 06:41:55 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear One and All: Welcome to the noble people of Russia. I am presently
making contact with a 38 year old man in Russia who is on the
Physic-Technical Faculty of a University. He is interested in knowing
things about ESP in the West.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Russia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  3 Feb 93 06:48:22 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Folks: Anyone of good will who wants to write this person contact
me by E-mail and if I consider you to be a who won't give him a hard
time I will send you his E-mail address.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: What is a Kibo?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  3 Feb 93 06:59:03 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Bigfootersf: A while back a person asked, who is Kibo? Kibo is
what I consider one of my friends on the Net. I don't understand
him but the name Kibo stands for Knowledge in B_______ out. It's
sort of a play on the words Garbage in Garbage out, when you are
talking about computers. He has his on Net Group and is a person
who has a wonderful sense on humor.
John Winston.  Don't tell anyone I ever said anything good about
him or he will be ruined for life.
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Any Info on 2/2 UFO sighting?
Date: 3 Feb 1993 13:19:11 -0600
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ub.d.umn.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>I heard a short mention on the news this morning about a UFO sighting
>last night (2/2/93) over a large part of the midwest & eastern US.
>Has anyone on a.a.v any details on this?  I have also heard that there
>have been several sightings in Jefferson County Colorado lately, and
>wondered if there was any info to be had on these.

Well, I heard a mention on the local News about a sighting in Wisconsin
(right across a river from me - Wisconsin, that is, I don't know about
the sighting).  Anyway, several people claimed to see a cigar shaped
object in the sky.  That was the extent of the report, so don't ask me
anymore about it.  I would need to see a Wisconsin Map (or at least a
list of county names) to remember the name of the county it was in (I
think it started with an 'F', but I could be wrong).  Oh, and it was two
nights ago (on Monday), and not last night for this particular report.

>Thanks!
>
>Kellie M-S
>[e-mail]

    Thanks
    Robert Fentiman

InterNet: [e-mail]
At: University of Minnesota, Duluth


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From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Survey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 93 17:26:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> gilly![e-mail] (Dave Fischer) writes:
>Number one priority: stop destroying witness credibility by using
>hypnosis to "extract" information. Such data is as likely to come
>from the hypnotist as from the witness.
>================= Dave Fischer - Nature's Perfect Food =================

I get really tired of this senario. My hypnotist was not expecting me to
discuss little grey men floating my body out the wall and into a ship.
She was more expecting me to say my father beat the crap out of me as a
child. I believe most credible hypnotherapists understand the concept of
"leading the witness". Give their profession a little credit. Most of the
comments made about hypnotists leading a person to say things is from
people who never had the experience. There is a quality to memory that
is missing in a made up story. When you re-experience something you also
get the fear, anxiety, humor, happiness, ect...
Just my 2 cents.

--
........--=={0}==--.........................--=={0}==--..............
--=={0}==--  * .   *. [e-mail]  *   .*  --=={0}==--.
 *   --=={0}==-- *  .   DENISE FAITH SOLIS     --=={0}==--*.*
--=={0}==--.....--=={0}==--..................*.............--=={0}==--
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Newcomb)
Subject: Re: What is a Kibo?
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1993 20:15:38 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 12

[e-mail] writes:
>him but the name Kibo stands for Knowledge in B_______ out. It's
                                               ^^^^^^^^

Dear John_-_:
It's ok, you're among fiends here. You can say words like Bozosity.

Like Kibo says, You're Allowed.

nuke
--
~/.oo
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From: [e-mail] (TheLrdLovsAHngn)
Subject: Re: Window Of Infinity.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: United Technologies Research Center
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1993 20:33:38 GMT
Lines: 6

How nice!
--
Disclaimer:  I didn't do it!  Nobody saw me do it!  You can't prove anything!
             My opinions are my own.   They do not reflect anyone/thing else!
\/       preferred        \/
[e-mail]            |           [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Any Seattle UFO activities Feb. 20???
Date: 3 Feb 1993 22:09:20 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I am going to be in the Seattle area the weekend of Feb. 20th.  As
always, I'd love to get in on any UFO type activities/meetings that
might be going on, or meet with any hard core UFO enthusiasts.

If anyone knows of anything happening then, please email me.

Thanks, David
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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: In defense of Don Allen
Keywords: cia, rothschilds, bush, skull and bones, mj12
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 93 22:32:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 27

Ahhh yess........Ed Carp...and he is still carping on and on
and on like a bloody noxema commercial in love with itself.

Don Allen has nothing of worth to say????? Strange as Don only
garners all his material from other valid and acknowledged
researchers and then passes it on...if he has nothing of any
worth to say then why is he managing the hub of an echo that
has penetrated the Euro and Australian continents out of the
Paranet BBS WITH the help and blessings of Paranet????

I think it is time for you all to realize the simple fact that
those who spew the loudest most colorful fertilizer are indeed
those who are being PAID to do so by the very gvt that is
responsible for covering up the UFO/ET phenomena in this
country since 1948!

So in short...go back to your "buddies" Ed and tell them that
you get an A in Effort but an F as a final grade. I guess it's
back to Debunk 101 for you guy!

                ;^)

--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
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From: [e-mail] (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Oh, No!  Re: What is a Kibo?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 93 23:08:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Lines: 25


You did it this time.  Opened a real Pandora's box.  Nobody asks "What is
a Kibo?", and lives to tell about it.  tsk tsk

Jon Noring

:^)




--

Charter Member of the INFJ Club.

Now, if you're just dying to know what INFJ stands for, be brave, e-mail me,
and I'll send you some information.  It WILL be worth the inquiry, I think.

=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | [e-mail]        | I VOTED FOR PEROT IN '92 |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   | Support UNITED WE STAND! |
| 1312 Carlton Place  | Phone : [phone]   | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: [phone]   |  caravan moves on."      |
=============================================================================
Who are you?  Read alt.psychology.personality!  That's where the action is.
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From: [e-mail] (James Davies)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 93 22:47:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>>|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davies) writes:
>
>>|> >The book "The Fringes of Reason" has a pretty good chapter on spontaneous
>>|> >combustion.  The basic conclusion was (body fat) + (cloth) + (spark) = (candle),
>>|> >i.e. a dead person with a lit cigarette lying on a rug would keep smoldering
>>|> >until all of their body fat was consumed, so that when they were discovered
>>|> >later there would just be a pile of ashes on a burnt carpet.

>The remarks about the "Fringes of Reason" book cited above make it
>sound rather silly. I've seen one book debunking SHC which does so by
>quoting the successful experiments of the above scientist, who has
>since been shown to be a fraud -- i.e., so sure he was right that he
>hadn't bothered to do the experiments he claimed to have done!  But,
>at your recommendation, I'm willing to check it out, if you will
>supply me the name of author and publisher.

Here's the entry from the UC-Boulder library catalog.  Have fun...

                 The Fringes of reason :  a whole earth catalog /  edited by
                   Ted Schultz ; foreword by Stewart Brand.
                 1st ed.

                 New York :  Harmony Books,  1989.
                 223 p. :  ill. ;  28 cm.
                 Includes index.
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From: [e-mail] (James Davies)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: SHC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 93 22:59:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: I should have said, It happens quite often or something
>like that. I believe you will find the SHC stands for Spontaneous
>Human Combustion a phenomena that happen and people burn up with
>no apparent cause. After it happens then most people stand around
>and deny that it happened in the first place. It's a good thing to
>look into so that you can learn that we are not as smart as we
>might think.
>John Winston.

Speak for yourself, John.   :-)
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From: [e-mail] (Ron Williams)
Subject: Re: Nasty Remarks
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: ACUS Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Sydney
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1993 01:58:17 GMT
Lines: 29

Robert Sheaffer ([e-mail]) wrote:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:
> >
> >Topic 279:  Mad Scientists II
> ># 12: Epigone of Koestler (rcl)      Mon, Sep 14, '92  (17:58)
> >16 lines
> >
> >Praising Sarfatti in front of his face certainly won't alter his
> >character for better or worse, so let me say this. He strikes me
> >as one of those unusual American originals, The Existential Hero.
> >Such people don't often exist outside the fiction of Hemingway or

[etc.]

>            Yes. And he's modest, too. So *many* virtues!
>

Did Sarfatti _really_ write this? Maybe someone used his account for this
effort? When he first started posting (or when I first noticed his postings)
late last year, I thought he might have something interesting to say. The
postings since then seem to have lost a certain amount of relevance.

ron

--
Ron Williams                  ACSnet : [e-mail]
Ph : [phone]         Internet : [e-mail]
Fax: [phone]             UUCP : uunet!munnari!syacus.acus.oz.au!ron
Standard Disclaimers Apply
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: "Inner Light" Publications
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 93 03:23:35 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 113


Hi,

   I chanced to receive a flier from "Inner Light Publications", a
magazine (of sorts) from Tim Beckley's publishing house.  (I say of
sorts because most of the thing is dedicated to selling you one or
another book, or the "Truth about UFOs" convention in San Diego in
March.)

   Anyway, its interesting to find most of the "dark side" of ufology
represented so well.  By "dark side" I mean the underground-base/
human-stew/secret-everything/you-name-it/Bill Cooper/John Lear/
Tim Beckley crew.

   So, this stuff may be of interest to you.  If'n you want addresses,
or other info, please email me.  As you will see, "Inner Light" is
something of a mishmosh of UFO and 'New Age' stuff...  has anyone
gotten stuff from this place?


Some highlights from the short articles, almost all of which end with
a pitch for a book (or a talk at this convention thing); you will
probably hear about one or another of these things from the rumor
mill soon enough):

   * Big to-do about "Max", the '10,000 year old crystal skull', and
its various psychic powers.

   * 'The Grand Deception of 1995' - supposedly in the Fall of 1995
the "paradigm shift" will occur; single world government, (staged,
fake) UFO's land, etc. (sound familiar?)

   * "Commander X" (no, I'm not kidding, "Commander X") hawking the
'Cosmic Patriot Files' - Illuminatii, secret single world government,
masons, 'Starfleet International' (a secret astronaut program), Tesla,
etc.

   * 'ET Saucers vs. Earth Made UFOs' by Beckley himself - hyping the
conference, some of whose speakers will include Bill Cooper (who it
turns out, is now saying that JFK was killed by secret societies, and
not the government), and John Lear (who will, the article says,
"come clean" about his employment by the government (I have no idea
what this is supposed to mean.))

   * 'Wake up America' by "Commander X" ("formerly of military
intelligence, now on the side of humanity")- 'energy from the air
around you' (Tesla again.)

   * 'Protecting yourself aginst the Alien Harvesters', by "Sri
Donato", using "mental vibrations" on abductees (after the fact) --
nightmares as alien intrusions, abductions, etc.

   * 'Everything you desire in the twinkling of an eye', about Bryce
Bond - psychic stuff.



   From some of the book/tape/you-name-it ads:

    CIA/Alien Connection EXPOSED! (just like that, in capitals)
various books by Beckly, Steiger, and "Commander X" -- MJ12, Hangar
18, Philadelphia Experiement, hollow earth, MIB's, etc.

    'Reality of the Serpent Race' (from 'Global Communications') -
Illuminatii, Bermuda Triangle, Meier, Telos (the supposed city beneath
Mt. Shasta), etc.  "Order today before its too late!!"  (includes a
warning to readers to repeat the 23d Psalm if they are attacked by
"dark powers" while reading it.)

    'Behold a Pale Horse' - a Cooper opus.

    UFO and New Age Library - audio tapes of various folks,
including Lear, Cooper, Stranges, Stevens, Stieger, etc.

    Glow-in-the-dark Alien T-shirts.

    "Mindpower Magnifiers"

    "Money Magnets"

    "Pyramid Prophecies"

    "Psychic and UFO Revelations" (including "Space Brothers
Medallion") - more on 1995.

    "UFO Seals of the Spirits" (all 24 for five *hundred* bucks!)

    "Angels of the Lord" (including "Guardian Angel Talisman") -
Angels walk among us...

    "Sacred Magic" (including talismans)

    "Count Saint Germain" (includes "immortality talisman" --
catching a pattern here?)

    "Extraterrestrials in biblical prophecy" (no talisman, sorry)


... and this one caught my eye:

    "Speak with the Space Gods!" (but its not a 900 phone thing,
just a newsletter from Ireland.)


... so anyway, if you're looking for weird UFO books, this looks like
the place.  (I have been on a book-collecting kick lately, having run
across several 40+ year old UFO books, and I have had a lot of trouble
locating many books about the "dark side", so for me this is sort of a
good thing -- sort of, because Beckley charges a ton of money for
everything; most books (or pamplets, or whatever, its not clear) seem
to be $15 or more.)

Charles
From: [e-mail] (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1993 20:08:19 GMT
Subject: UFO sighting in Milwaukee?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: HP Mfg. Test Div., Loveland, CO
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplextra!hpfcso!hplvec!brian
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Lines: 12

The local CBS affiliate in Denver had a short blurb on the 10:00 news
last night (2/1/93) that said a UFO had been sighted near Milwaukee
within the last week (maybe even yesterday - don't remember).  There
was a very good photo or videotape of it (it was so short I couldn't
really tell which) and the local sheriff or police captain was quoted
as saying it really was a UFO.

Is there any more data on this?  Seems high enough quality that there
ought to be.

Brian

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From: [e-mail] (Eric R. Lindahl)
Subject: Re: Nasty Remarks
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1993 08:23:15 GMT
Lines: 17

As for the aim of the flame:
  "But far beyond my depth my high-blown pride at length broke under me
   and now has left me weary and old with service, to the mercy of a rude
   stream that must for ever hide me. Vain pomp and glory of this world,
   I hate ye."
              Shakespeare

As for the game of the flamers:
   "And those people should not be listened to who keep saying the voice
    of the people is the voice of God, since the riotousness of the crowd
    is always very close to madness."
              Alcuin

As for me:
   "Can I quote myself?"
              Hominid

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From: gilly![e-mail] (Dave Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Survey
Date: 4 Feb 1993 02:42:57 -0600
Organization: Flat Earth Liberation Front Against TV
Lines: 25
Sender: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

[e-mail] (Denise Solis) writes:

>I get really tired of this senario. My hypnotist was not expecting me to
>discuss little grey men floating my body out the wall and into a ship.
>She was more expecting me to say my father beat the crap out of me as a
>child. I believe most credible hypnotherapists understand the concept of
>"leading the witness". Give their profession a little credit. Most of the
>comments made about hypnotists leading a person to say things is from
>people who never had the experience. There is a quality to memory that
>is missing in a made up story. When you re-experience something you also
>get the fear, anxiety, humor, happiness, ect...
>Just my 2 cents.

Well, the use of such tecniques that *I've* witnessed were a complete
joke. Of course there are "practitioners" who consciously avoid planting
any ideas, but I don't think they're a majority in the abductee field,
and how are you going to prove it anyways?

(Ignoring for the moment the question of whether there *is* such a thing as
ligit info from "hypnotherapy".)


------------------------ uunet!quack!gilly!dave ------------------------
================= Dave Fischer - Nature's Perfect Food =================
---------------------- [e-mail] ----------------------
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From: gilly![e-mail] (Dave Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mysticism, Physics and Art
Date: 4 Feb 1993 02:43:16 -0600
Organization: Flat Earth Liberation Front Against TV
Lines: 14
Sender: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)

>  What's fictional?  Art?  Physics?  Religion? What do you mean here?

Have you *read* the stuff this guy posts!?!? Science is great, art
is great, the combination of the two is the best, but babbling on
about insane mystic bullshit, and casually crediting it to quantum
mechanics is as sickening as the new-age stuff that gets attributed
to Jung's "collective unconscious"!


------------------------ uunet!quack!gilly!dave ------------------------
================= Dave Fischer - Nature's Perfect Food =================
---------------------- [e-mail] ----------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Metaphysics.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  3 Feb 93 17:51:29 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Viewers: Did you see the latest episode of Key West? It was
a combination of Sex and Metaphysics 101. Maybe Shirley MacClain
is secretly producing it.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Magnetic field detector.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  3 Feb 93 18:02:48 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folk: A well educated Russian friend of mine took a coathanger,
bent it into a certain configuration and checked out my magnetic field
around my body. It was quite a demonstration.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Survey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 93 05:31:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 44


    [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
    What should we be attempting to measure and how would we go
    about doing it, including what types of instruments could be
    used to acquire the data.

... well, it depends on what you want to get.  Pictures are a plus,
so (this stuff is mostly obvious, but what the hell):

    video camera(s) - highest quality available/affordable;
        probably with some nice zoom.  Use tripods whenever
        possible, so camera movement is minimized.
    light-intensifying equipment (like the news media have used
        now and again, for instance during the Gulf War.)
        For shooting at night.
    radar (having a second, impartial observer would be a big
        help -- radar returns are hard to deny.) A video
        hookup to the radar display would be something of
        a must.
    audio recording equipment.  Some of this lot could be pretty
        cheap; you'd be looking to hear what people said
        while they were looking.  Another recorder, hooked
        to a shotgun microphone could be used to record sounds
        of whatever is seen.  (Which could distinguish
        helicopters from other things, for instance.)
    motion sensors - maybe; I don't know much about 'em, but
        they might be useful to wake up the crew (:-)

... having said all that, I'd point out that this stuff ain't cheap.
At least some of it is rentable from companies that specialize in
renting equipment, so if a group is going out every once in a while,
renting may be the cheaper way to go.  (Rentable stuff may be in an
'oddball' format - that is, oddball for home use -- 3/4".  Local
"cable access" stations can probably help out here for transfer
to a more 'home friendly' format as necessary.)


   Once you have pictures (photographs, too), then you can analyze
your socks off.


Hope this helps,

Charles
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: Re: Survey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1993 13:13:00 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (glenn durden) writes:
> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
> > I would like to pose a question to the a.a.v users.  The idea of instrumentat
> >
> > Thoughts, ideas?
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
> How about a photograph that isnt blurry   :-)
>

Trouble is, the photos that are not blurry tend to hoaxes!! Take George
Adamski's photos, not much sign of blurr but widely held to be fakes.
(ref: The UFO Encylopedia. Margaret Sachs. Corgi Books, 1980)

> Seriously though, would a spectrographic analysis of the light reflected
> off one help to tell what they were made of?
>
> glenn durden

It comes down to what type of UFO you are after. Clearly there is something
different about abductions compared with distant nocturnal lights.

Steve

--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Seventies Guy)
Subject: Re: Mysticism, Physics and Art
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: none
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 17:46:20 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet readnews user id)
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Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jack
Sarfatti) writes:
>
> What is the New Physics? It is my personal complex art form blending real
> physics with imaginary mystical vision bridging C.P. Snows "Two Cultures".
> It is a "hybrid" "Glass Bead Game" of Magick without magic. Barbarians,
> hacks, mediocrities, rednecks, apparachiks, and other one-dimensional
> uncultured creatures, comfortable with shadows on the wall of the cave,
> react with fear, anger and rage when they gaze upon its Illumination.

*sphftt* ! <insert spit take here>

this newsgroup needs an enema.

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From: [e-mail] (Zachary Lo)
Subject: Is it true?
Message-ID: <lo.728597358@honte>
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date:  1 Feb 93 20:09:18 GMT
Lines: 14

Hi there

When I read the newspaper from Hong Kong (my Home). Sometime they will
talk about the UFO and Alien. Some of the news said Alien had sex with
the woman on the earth. Baby look like alien were born. I wonder they
are serious or just a joke to catch the reader's attention. Also most of
the news is form USA. Well, is there any organization in USA and CANADA
is work in a related field. I am very interest in this topic. If any of
you has reliable information, please forward it to me. I will be very
appreiated.

Thanks!
Zachary Lo
e-mail : [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (G T Clark)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: SHC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 93 15:25:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 36

[e-mail] writes:

>Dear Folks: I should have said, It happens quite often or something
>like that. I believe you will find the SHC stands for Spontaneous
>Human Combustion a phenomena that happen and people burn up with
>no apparent cause. After it happens then most people stand around
>and deny that it happened in the first place. It's a good thing to
>look into so that you can learn that we are not as smart as we
>might think.
>John Winston.


    I saw a really good TV program on the subject a few years
ago,put together by someone who had a lot of experience of fires in
confined spaces.I think he had been a fireman.Basically,what he had to
say is that most of us,when we think of "a fire",think of a fire that is
outside, or in a fireplace with a nice draught,or is inside but is
really small,like a match.What he said was that in his experience
victims of SHC are found in closed rooms,where a fire has started, they
have been killed,and the amount of oxygen in the room has declined until
the fire can do no more than smoulder.
    Because there's no draught,the temperature in the room stays
quite high.There are no flames,so no widespread destruction.If the
victim has fallen against whatever was burning,then after a while they
can start smouldering too,burning a bit like a candle,with their clothes
as a wick.Eventually,the gradual burning of the floor or whatever might
open a chimney and the whole lot might go up,or it might burn itself
out,leaving a hot room with a mainly-destroyed body in it.The effects of
the fire are apparently far enough from the effects of just putting a
match to things that it all looks very mysterious.
    That's what he said,anyway,and as he obviously knew more about
fire than anybody I know,I'm not about to say that he's wrong.Does
anybody else know enough to disprove this? Or is there a better theory?


            G.
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: What is a Kibo?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1993 06:16:01 GMT
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Bigfootersf: A while back a person asked, who is Kibo? Kibo is
>what I consider one of my friends on the Net.

That's nothing.  Many people say that Kibo is what they consider their
only friend on the net.  Of course, I've been sending them large
quantities of cash.

>I don't understand
>him but the name Kibo stands for Knowledge in B___---___ out.

Wrong again, Watson!  It's actually just a ROT13 version of "xvob", one
of my favorite obscene nonsense words.

>John Winston.  Don't tell anyone I ever said anything good about
>him or he will be ruined for life.

(nasalizing) I asked you not to tell me that!

                    -- K.
                    I talk just like Don Adams
                    at times.  It drives the
                    wimminfolk mad with desire.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Arrogant.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  4 Feb 93 06:24:24 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear People: I just got some E-mail from a person who said I was
arrogant. Can you feature the arrogance of a person who said that
I was arrogant? I guess I'll have to work on that one and then I'll
be perfect like Kibo.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Russia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  4 Feb 93 06:29:10 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear People of the World: It seems that the Russian people are more
open in their study of ESP than we are in the west. Our engineers
will look down on you if you show any interest in ESP but the people
of Russia accept it as part of life.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Monster Lovers.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  4 Feb 93 06:35:50 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Monster Lovers: I feel a dinosaur story coming on. Don't tell
anyone but I am one of the few people on earth who believe that there
are a few dinosaurs still living in remote areas today.
John Winston
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Subject: Re: Any Info on 2/2 UFO sighting?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: sunhc
Organization: Carl Pellonpaa Fan Club - South Chapter
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1993 14:37:18 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman) writes:
=>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
=>>I heard a short mention on the news this morning about a UFO sighting
=>>last night (2/2/93) over a large part of the midwest & eastern US.
=>>...

I haven't seen anything about a midwestern flap.

=>...  Anyway, several people claimed to see a cigar shaped
=>object in the sky.  That was the extent of the report, so don't ask me
=>anymore about it.  I would need to see a Wisconsin Map (or at least a
=>list of county names) to remember the name of the county it was in (I
=>think it started with an 'F', but I could be wrong).

Interesting.  I saw a Reuters article that said an egg shaped orange
light was chased by a cop near Oconomowoc (sp) Wisconsin.  This was
after a call that there was something sighted near I-94, which is a
major arterial between Chicago and Milwaukee and which I've driven
on a few hundred times.  For such a busy interstate there should have
been several tens to hundreds of witnesses depending on the time.
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From: [e-mail] (Rob Dobson)
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1993 18:08:17 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Monster Lovers: I feel a dinosaur story coming on. Don't tell
>anyone but I am one of the few people on earth who believe that there
>are a few dinosaurs still living in remote areas today.
>John Winston



Dear Barney The Dinosaur,

I love you. I want to rip off your fucking legs and beat the piss out of
you with them. I want to kill you. I want to rip off your head. I want to
rip your head off and shit down your neck, you fat purple fuck. I want to
take a goddamn baseball bat and beat your fat ass with it. I dont care if
youre a dinosaur, and I dont care if you have spots on your ass--Im going
to find you, and im going to destroy you. Im going to beat you so bad
youll shit blood for a week. The next time you come out of my television
and threaten me im going to call the cops. Come on, you little fucker,
give me an excuse to tie you to a stake and set you on fire. I want to see
your flesh burn. Ill always love you and youll always be my friend..Our
fun and learning never ends.









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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Any Info on 2/2 UFO sighting?
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1993 18:37:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (jcj) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman) writes:
>=>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>=>>I heard a short mention on the news this morning about a UFO sighting
>=>>last night (2/2/93) over a large part of the midwest & eastern US.

>
>=>...  Anyway, several people claimed to see a cigar shaped
>=>object in the sky.  That was the extent of the report, so don't ask me
>=>anymore about it.  I would need to see a Wisconsin Map (or at least a
>=>list of county names) to remember the name of the county it was in (I
>=>think it started with an 'F', but I could be wrong).
>
>Interesting.  I saw a Reuters article that said an egg shaped orange
>light was chased by a cop near Oconomowoc (sp) Wisconsin.  This was
>after a call that there was something sighted near I-94, which is a
>major arterial between Chicago and Milwaukee and which I've driven
>on a few hundred times.  For such a busy interstate there should have
>been several tens to hundreds of witnesses depending on the time.

   Exactly.  And how much does anyone here care to bet that
   after a week or so of this newsgroup flapping its gums
   about it, the result will be  . . . NOTHING.   No physical
   evidence, no decent pictures, just another "he said, she
   said" tempest in a tty.   That's how all these UFO stories
   turn out.  Even when the UFO's allegedly show up over heavily
   populated areas with major media outlets in the end the stories
   just fade away with nothing to show.


---peter


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From: [e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
Date: 4 Feb 1993 19:08:02 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In reply to Rob Dobson's letter to Barney the dinosaur:

Looks like he/she/whatever is a few bricks shy of a full load!  Nice
to know that there are people like that running around loose out there
(heavy sarcasm).
--
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: ALIEN TYPES
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1993 18:20:10 GMT
Lines: 12

Hi,

A while back there was a listing posted about types
of alien visitors.....the greys, the guys in trench coats
etc., etc.,

Does anyone still have a copy of that list?  If so
could you email me a copy?

Thanks

DRN
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Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Thursday, 4 Feb 1993 11:11:46 PST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
Lines: 12

What's going on??  I hav'nt seen any thing about the UM program last night.
They showed some very convincing tape of an aleged UFO and an alien!  The tape
has been examined by "experts" and is claimed to be non bogus.  The problem is
that the tape was sent to investigators by a person calling himself "Guardian".
Along with the tape were "secret Gov. documents which, from what I could see as
 they were flashed on the screen for only a few seconds, had mention of "Dream
Land", Area 51, Grays, etc.  In any case the tape looked good but the stuff tha
t was sent with it sounded very familiar.  It did'nt have the quality of the ta
pe alone.  What think you?

                                       Gene    [e-mail]
SLAC DENIES MY EXISTENCE AND THEREFORE CAN NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR MY POSTINGS
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel Oldham)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Whats going on?
Date: 4 Feb 1993 20:19:28 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Lines: 6
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu

I saw the UM program last night with the tape of the UFO and the alien. It
was interesting that the tape was of very good quality but the documents
included by "guardian" were garbage. Whats going on?

--
dano:
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
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In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]> writes...
>What's going on??  I hav'nt seen any thing about the UM program last night.
>They showed some very convincing tape of an aleged UFO and an alien!  The tape
>has been examined by "experts" and is claimed to be non bogus.  The problem is
>that the tape was sent to investigators by a person calling himself "Guardian".
>Along with the tape were "secret Gov. documents which, from what I could see as
> they were flashed on the screen for only a few seconds, had mention of "Dream
>Land", Area 51, Grays, etc.  In any case the tape looked good but the stuff tha
>t was sent with it sounded very familiar.  It did'nt have the quality of the ta
>pe alone.  What think you?
>
>                                       Gene    [e-mail]
>SLAC DENIES MY EXISTENCE AND THEREFORE CAN NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR MY POSTINGS

Interesting show.  I enjoyed it too.

The witness seemed very credible.


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From: [e-mail] (Dean Zevchek)
Subject: Re: Abductions.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Sender: [e-mail]
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References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date:  4 Feb 1993 15:44 EST
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Subject: Bud Hopkins.
>  At the 1992 MUFON  Conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico, Budd Hopkins
>disclosed that a woman, Linda Cortile (not her real name), was allegedly
>abducted from her 12th-floor apartment building in New York City.

   I believe her real name was Linda Napalitano.

>  Not only that, but her abduction was witnessed by several people.  One of
>those was supposedly Javier Perez de Cuellar, former Secretary General of
>the United Nations. Ostensibly, the abduction event was staged for this
>man's benefit.

   Highly debatable.  This case is growing in popularity, and there are many
   big names in ufology taking sides both pro and con.  There's a decent UFO
   zine called UFO which is now following this report.  Saucer Smear is
   keeping up to date on it as well.

>  In addition to de Cuellar, his two agents, Dan and Richard, also in the car,
>witnessed the alleged event, as did a woman driving across the Brooklyn
>Bridge.

   And as a kicker, it's been reported that one of those agents recently
   died under very mysterious circumstances!

-=> Dean Zevchek
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From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: Whats going on?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Daniel Oldham) writes:
>I saw the UM program last night with the tape of the UFO and the alien. It
>was interesting that the tape was of very good quality but the documents
>included by "guardian" were garbage. Whats going on?
>
>--
>dano:

If you looked carefully on that 'real-authentic-looking' document, it
mentions Carleton University (along with Area 51 and Dreamland).  Carleton
University is the home of the Persistence of Vision ray-tracer programmers;
I suspect that video is another one of their pranks.  Nice job, though.

I was surprised to see Maccabee showing his face, though, after that Gulf
Breeze fiasco.

<X>

--
   ***********************************************************************
   *          Michael D. Whitten  [e-mail]               *
   *        "Psst.  Hey, Guido.  It's all so clear to me now..."         *
   ***********************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (Danny Smith)
Subject: Unsolved Mysteries: Guardian
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Hey, just caught the TV show Unsolved Mysteries last night. It had
video tape of a UFO landing in Canada which was sent to a UFO researcher
by an anonymous person named "Guardian". Did anyone else catch this show?

The people on the show said that researchers consider the tape believeable
but the fact that Guardian sent two other things with it makes it less
credible.

One was a DOD document (which people on the show said looked false and
was far-fetched). This document was shown across the screen very quickly
and I saw references to Greys and Area 51. If anything, that document
leads me to believe the guy! Of course it's the show's duty (through government
prodding) to discount things like documents containing these references.

The second thing was a picture of what was supposed to be an alien. Looked
strange and almost false, but who knows? Anyway, I found it very interesting
that a very good UFO video had a DOD document with references to area 51 and
Greys included with it.

Anyway, does anyone have comments on this show or the Canada video??
Anyone have an inside clue on who Guardian might be??
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 93 23:36:19 GMT
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In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:

>I am one of the few people on earth
>there are a few dinosaurs still living
>John Winston

AND NOW, THIS SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!!!! WE'RE TURNING PANGAEA INTO THE BIGGEST
MUD PIT IN THE WORLD FOR THE ULTIMATE SPECIES SHOWDOWN!!!  SEE THE LAST
REMNANTS OF HOMO "SMARTY PANTS" SAPIENS DUKE IT OUT WITH THE LAST FEW DINO
"S1ZE RULEZ" SAURS IN A KNOCK-DOWN DRAG-OUT NO-HOLDS-BARRED EVOLUTIONARY
BATTLE FOR MASTERY OF THE ECOSYSTEM!!!  SEE JOHN "_-_" WINSTON, LEADER OF THE
HUMANS GO UP FACE TO FACE WITH DINOSAUR LORD T. "keep those choppers looking
awesome, brush em twice a day and floss em!" REX IN A PERSONAL VENDETTA THAT
WILL KNOCK YOU OOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUT!!!!  WILL THE PUNY MONKEY BOYS BE ABLE TO
DEFEAT THE ENORMOUS THUNDER LIZARDS???  WILL THE TINY-BRAINED SAURIANS
MANAGE TO OUTWIT THE FEARSOME INTELLIGENCE OF THE HUMANS????  IT'S A FIGHT TO
THE FINISH FOR THE WHOLE WORLD!!!!!  ONLY ONE CAN BE VICTORIOUS AND CLAIM
THE TITLE OF "SUPREME SPECIES", THE OTHER IS DOOMED TO FILL THE OTHER'S GAS
TANKS FOR THE NEXT HUNDRED MILLION YEARS!!!  WE'LL ALSO HAVE BOZO THE CLOWN
TO SIGN AUTOGRAPHS AND THERE WILL BE A SPECIAL EXHIBITION FEATURING THE
ORIGINAL BATMOBILE!!!!  THIS IS THE EVENT YOU WON'T WANT MISS!!!!  BUY YOUR
TICKETS NOW AT ANY TICKETMASTER OUTLETS AND GET READY FOR THE GREATEST BATTLE
EVER!!! EVER!! EVER!! EVER!! EVER!! EVER!! EVER!! EVER!! EVER!! EVER!! EVER!!
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Warminster UFO
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My parents found this article in the June 6th 1965 edition of News Of The World
which I thought may be of interest to you.

Article is as follows:

        The Thing from Outer Warminster

People living on one side of a small hamlet town say they are being  plagued by
strange, unexplained sound bibrations. The shockwaves strike the Bone Hill area
of Warminster, Wilts, invariably in the early hours of the  morning, and are
announced by a high-pitched whining note.

    They have, it is claimed:

    Killed flocks of pigeons which flew into their path; made people
collapse and left them physically sick; and battered and shaken rooftops.

    Mr. Roger Rump, the head postmaster, and his wife, who live in Hillwood
Lane, described the effect of the vibrations as though a "large quantity of
gravel or rough stone" had been thrown across their house.

    At nearby Hillwood Close Mr. and Mrs. Bill Marson heard the strange
wailing and battering over their heads three times in one night.

    Mrs. Marson said: "We both scoff at science fiction, but this was so
eerie and frightening it made us both quite ill." When she and her husband
investigated the noises, the weather outside was peaceful and quiet.

    "It must have been mental telepathy between us," said Mr. Marson.

    "When we eventually got back to sleep after the third attack, we both
dreamt of spaceships."

    [Sub-heading: "Bombing"]

    Some people attribute the noises to the Army which uses ranges on
Salisbury Plain for firing and bombing exercises. Yet the Army never exercise
near Bone Hill.

    The mystery was heightened on Friday night, when a strange shining
object was seen over the town by 17 people, among them the Vicar of Heytesbury,
the Rev. P. Graham Phillips, his wife and their two children, Nigel, ages 12,
and Richard, 11.

    Mrs. Phillips said yesterday: "It was due south, high in the sky and
cigar-shaped. It hung there for about 25 minutes, suddenly looked shorter as
though turning on its axis - and vanished from sight."

    Mr. David Holton, a scientist, of Crockenton, near Warminster, who is
investigating the phenomena, said: "The possibility of interference from outside
our planet must be given serious consideration. All evidence so far points to
the likelihood that we are under survey and will be invaded."

    [End of article.]

Has anyone heard of David Holton or know what he is doing at the moment?


--
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Alex Alexander)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 7&^ IVO&^T
Message-ID: <alexa-260193070112@147.202.16.3>
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:00:04 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] wrote:
>
> D(&C^R(C% $XO%*P&^(O*% (O*&^% (&659765 (&^%(^%(*%^$I&$I&IR&^RFKFGKHGJF&I%^$RE
> CI&^R CI&^RE I&^%$ CI&%^ CI^%I^&RKTDF(&)
> :TY*T!Q&^%$*O&F*$^%"&^%$*^&%$YRT&^%X*^%Z*&$%^Z&$%*%^*^X%$X*^%$*

Damned alien newsreader software.

 _______________________________________________________________________
| Alex Alexander          |    The views expressed here are my own.     |
| LaserMaster R&D         |---------------------------------------------|
| Minneapolis, MN 55344   |    "Your only validation is in living your  |
| [e-mail] |      own life; vicarious existence is a     |
| [phone]          |       fucking waste of time." -- Axl Rose   |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (A waste of bandwidth originating)
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 01:45:25 GMT
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The letter to Barney was funnier.

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From: [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries: Guardian
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
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  I saw the show and thought the Tape was one of the best I have seen for
 some time.  I have heard about Guardian from time to time in the past few
 years. It was nice to see Bruce Macabee on the show I spent time with him
 donw in Gulf Breez Florida.  He is a very interesting person to talk to and
 Knows his stuff!
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 02:26:22 GMT
Lines: 5

--


   _________________________________
  |         [e-mail]        |
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Lapis L.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  4 Feb 93 18:08:07 PST
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Subject: How To Use Lapis L.
   Now that some of you have obtained a piece of Lapis L. crystal. I will now
infrom you how to use it. We use the crystal as a tuned oscillator. It
vibrates in the same freguency band (or a harmonic) of the human brain. You
put it in your hand (or between your eyes and 1 inch upward) and think about
it as you think a thought that you want to send to another person. Make a
picture of the other person and put that picture in the end of an funnel
that you have made in your mind. You put the large part of the funnel that
you are thinking of up near your face and you extend the small end of the
funnel out to where it reaches the person you are trying to talk to. As you
are thinking of the person say the message that you want them to receive out
loud or just in your mind. Next take the person out of your mind and think
about something else for a few second and then think of the person's face
again. This will cause the thought to leave you and go to the person. It's
best to try this with a person who thinks the same things you do at the same
time although you hadn't planned it to happen.
  Go for it. It will work.
John Winston
d and think about it as you think a thought that you want to send to another
w
%2mE55
,
PA


x
%2mE55
,
PA
r8P$,

9cJK,<
0Roman 10cpi to. As you are thinking of the person say the message that
you want them to receive out loud or just in your
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: Any Info on 2/2 UFO sighting?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Here in Omaha the local news showed a film clip of the object seen in
Wisconsin.  Since it was taken at night it is hard to tell what exactly
is shown.  All I could make out of it was a bright light that seemed to
move strangely.  The odd movement could have been made by camera movement.
The camera did seem to be bouncing around.  However, the audio to the tape
seemed interesting.  I think it was a family that taped the sighting as I
heard a man (father?), woman (mother), and children.  The man and the
children seemed excited and the woman seemed afraid.  She said something
like,  it's cooming closer and I'm going inside.

If it comes on again at 10:00 PM I'll tape it and let everyone know more.


                                        Joe Citro III

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From: [e-mail] (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Monster Lovers: I feel a dinosaur story coming on. Don't tell
>anyone but I am one of the few people on earth who believe that there
>are a few dinosaurs still living in remote areas today.
>John Winston

REMOTE areas? Hell, I've got one living in my goddamn living room!

mdw

--
Matt Welsh, [e-mail]
  "What are you doing, Dave?"
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From: [e-mail] (Bear Giles)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Daily Planet)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Scott Erb) writes:
>
>I think you guys missed the point, or else you don't have the imaginative
>skills to take what MUST BE PRESENTED IN LINEAR TIME (since we are watching
>TV afterall) and re-interpreting it in a manner that thinks about the
>philosophical and even spiritual implications of that message.

I think you're worshiping the DS9 writers a little too loudly.

I enjoy stretching my perceptions, but that DS9 episode was silly.
The writers tried to sound deep and instead wrote theater-of-the-absurd.

>[Deleted]

The human character will filter his perceptions of what happened through
his expectation of linear time.  They will be completely jumbled, and he
probably wouldn't remember much if he remained sane.

(Before you jump on alleged cultural biases, he won't remember much because
he won't be able to form the necessary _links_ for meaningful memory.  If I
flash on your screen a random ordering of the NYC phone book how many numbers
do you think you'll remember?  Or did you think human memory is like a big
tape recorder, capable of recording arbitrary data?)

>Either way, it seems logical that reality is probably more than what
>our limited senses can perceive, and perhaps imagination is the key to
>explore that.

I _know_ reality has more that what my _senses_ can perceive.  Any working
TV or radio proves that.  Does reality have more than our enhanced senses
(with instruments) can perceive?  Perhaps... put your imagination is most
assuredly _not_ the key to exploring it unless you're the universe's only
solipist.  (Sorry, couldn't resist the "only"!)

>You have to suspend your
>disbelief, play with concepts and ideas, and do some of your own imaginative
>work rather than simply accepting what the TV tells you!

As a long-term SF fan I can confidently state that suspension of disbelief
is a sign of a _bad_ SciFi story.  As for ST "playing" with concepts and
ideas...  when Madonna is named a Saint.

Try reading Frank Herbert or David Brin for stories that challenge you
without requiring suspension of disbelief.  (Ignoring FTL travel for the
purpose of setting up a story, of course.  But _only_ that).

--
Bear Giles
[e-mail]/cs.colorado.edu
Organization: Doctoral student, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  4 Feb 1993 18:08:01 -0500
From: Andy Kurtz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Unsolved Mysteries ufo
Lines: 2

did anyone catch the ufo segment on U.M. last night?  opinions?

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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: Survey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew) writes...
>
>    [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>      > What should we be attempting to measure and how would we go
>      > about doing it, including what types of instruments could be
>      > used to acquire the data.
>
>.... well, it depends on what you want to get.  Pictures are a plus,
>so (this stuff is mostly obvious, but what the hell):
>
>    video camera(s)
>    light-intensifying equipment
>    radar
>    audio recording equipment
>    motion sensors

I actually have thought about this a bit. Here's my "ideal UFO hunter" list:

- Compass
     one magnetic, for quick checking of magnetic effects, one gyroscopic, as a
     check on the magnetic compass
- Geiger counter
     self explanatory
- Surveyor's transit or equivalent equipment
     for triangulation on sightings; this requires more than one observer and
     someone who can do the math
- Camera
     with telephoto lenses; fast film for capturing moving objects
- Telescope
     preferably 1000mm or more focal length, with capability to attach camera
     or video camera; for close ups if they stand still long enough
- Video camera
     with zoom lens; image intensifier would be nice for nighttime; so would IR
     capability for recording heat effects; date/time display
- Cassette recorder
     with shotgun mike, for recording object sound effects at a distance
- Handheld CB radios (or Amateur band for you Hams)
     for coordinating multiple observers
- Notebook/pens/pencils
     obvious
- Binoculars
     obvious; I keep a pair in my truck at all times
- Handheld scanner radio
     preferably a good general-coverage one, programmable to receive local
     police, aircraft, military
- A cheapo battery powered AM radio
     good for picking up electromagnetic disturbance; tune to anyplace there's
     no station and listen for noise
- Ziplock bags
     for samples; proper technique would be to photograph sample as found, then
     use the bag to pick it up without touching, seal it
- A vehicle

I've seen mention of someone's "UFO detector" alarm going off here on a.a.v...
anyone have details on that?

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 04:01:47 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]> writes:

> that the tape was sent to investigators by a person calling himself "Guardian".

the finger-print "guardian" mystic could be Gary S___l_a_? He hasn't
been reporting in lately, and the film was obviously made by an insider
which we all know Gary is.

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From: [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
Date: 5 Feb 1993 00:20:02 -0600
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (barry.o.olson) writes:
:In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]> writes:
:
:> that the tape was sent to investigators by a person calling himself "Guardian".
:
:the finger-print "guardian" mystic could be Gary S___l_a_? He hasn't
:been reporting in lately, and the film was obviously made by an insider
:which we all know Gary is.

Why don't they just try to trace the fingerprint (or check the return
address on the package - I believe UM made an error of putting one on
there if ther wasn't one on the original package).

    Thanks
    Robert Fentiman

InterNet: [e-mail]
At: University of Minnesota, Duluth



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From: [e-mail] (Howard Berkey)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology,alt.non.sequitur
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 93 06:03:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Matt Welsh) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>Dear Monster Lovers: I feel a dinosaur story coming on. Don't tell
>>anyone but I am one of the few people on earth who believe that there
>>are a few dinosaurs still living in remote areas today.
>>John Winston
>
>REMOTE areas? Hell, I've got one living in my goddamn living room!
>

Tired of the new cat already, huh?  You should have named it "Mr.
President" or something besides 'Tiddles' and then it wouldn't be such
a monster, now would it?

-H-

>mdw
>
>--
>Matt Welsh, [e-mail]
>  "What are you doing, Dave?"

"Emasculating you for not opening the goddam pod bay door, Hal."
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey                           [e-mail]
        I've decided to buy USL from Novell (their pesky
        salesmen wouldn't leave me alone) and give it to
        Stallman for his birthday, on the caveat he hires
        Kibo for his CEO, and gets a haircut.  Contact me
        if you are a financier.
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13870 alt.alien.visitors:13212 alt.religion.kibology:6273
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From: [e-mail] (special agent finerty)
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
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    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 93 05:16:20 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stanley M. Golem) writes:
>
>In reply to Rob Dobson's letter to Barney the dinosaur:
>
>Looks like he/she/whatever is a few bricks shy of a full load!  Nice
>to know that there are people like that running around loose out there
>(heavy sarcasm).

excuse me, Rob is well adjusted. it's me you have to worry about. really.
i mean really. ok?





--
pjf    pseudogene impersonator extraordinaire
    and hapless inhabitant of salt lick city.
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Abductions.
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 05:15:23 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 50

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Bud Hopkins.
>  I recently read something in a tabloid magazine and lost the article but I
>did find an abbreviated version of the incident in another more established
>magazine so here is how the information went; ......UFO ABDUCTION. If the
>following story is true, this could be the biggest UFO case of the century.
>  At the 1992 MUFON  Conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico, Budd Hopkins
>disclosed that a woman, Linda Cortile (not her real name), was allegedly
>abducted from her 12th-floor apartment building in New York City.
>  Not only that, but her abduction was witnessed by several people.  One of
>those was supposedly Javier Perez de Cuellar, former Secretary General of
>the United Nations. Ostensibly, the abduction event was staged for this
>man's benefit.
>  In addition to de Cuellar, his two agents, Dan and Richard, also in the car,
>witnessed the alleged event, as did a woman driving across the Brooklyn
>Bridge.  Stay tuned to FATE for more information. This is proving to be an
>explosively controversaial case, and we will keep you informed.
>JW, So there you have part of the story.
>Source of Information: January 1993/FATE page 9.
>John Winston.

Well, you must be the only one that hasn't read the Stefula,Butler and
Hansen report on the Linda "Cortile" (nee Napolitano) case..

For the record, Jerome Clark of FATE has publically called George Hansen
"Torquemada", but yet Clark hasn't refuted not even *one* of Hansen's
claims/challenges/charges. I'd hardly put much credibility into Jerome
Clark as a fellow co-conspirator but he _does_ have his facts mixed up.

There is no proof whatsoever largely to support Linda's "story". As
for "Richard" or "Dan"..depending on you talk to, either one just died
or neither really even existed. There's no evidence to support the claims
of de Cuellar ever witnessing any abduction event. However, it's mostly
academic because Hopkins won't offer up any substantiation but yet he
doesn't miss an opportunity to hawk his "case" for big dollars on the
lecture circuit. No proof, but lots of claims..of course, you'll *have*
to buy his upcoming book if you want to know more.

"Case of the century?"

NOT!

Don


--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 05:28:25 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 50

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Greig) writes:
>>
>>Protocols predates Hitler's Nazis although he certainly referred to
>>the document and its authenticity. Supposedly written at a graveyard
>>in Poland some time about the turn of the century -- maybe someone can
>>be more exact.
>
>Yes, it's said to be a forgery by the Czarist secret police. Certainly
>it reads as if this were true. It tries to make people think 'the Jews
>are your enemy, but the Aristocracy is your friend'.
>
>>Anyone have a copy (in English) they could email me (or post)?
>
>No, but they're in Bill Cooper's book "Behold a Pale Horse."
>(He says, however, that the references to "the Jews" really mean
>"the Illuminati"!)
>--
>
>        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]
>
No....not *that* book!

Arg..

Bill Cooper just got booted off his satellite feed..course' it was
the same ole' wild bill we've come to know..the predictable rants
and charges of "You're a Govt Agent!".

My *favorite* Bill Cooper story is that it was reported that he got
into a fight/scuffle with Eric "Bigfoot Lives!" Bekjord last year
at a UFO convention, after Bekjord made loud allusions to Cooper's
"wooden leg"...heeheh..

Yep..Bill Cooper jumps all over George Green but yet he publishes
the _same_ bilge in his book.

Well..things could get interesting..Bill English just re-surfaced
and has a board up at 505-682-3564 and he's just posted a whole
slew of messages on the Fido UFO echo so we may get to see what
English says about Cooper's exploits now. :-)

Don


--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
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From: [e-mail] (Greg Larson)
Subject: Re: SHC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: staff.tc.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota
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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 08:08:28 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (G T Clark) writes:
>
>    I saw a really good TV program on the subject a few years
>ago,put together by someone who had a lot of experience of fires in
>confined spaces.I think he had been a fireman.Basically,what he had to
>say is that most of us,when we think of "a fire",think of a fire that is
>outside, or in a fireplace with a nice draught,or is inside but is
>really small,like a match.What he said was that in his experience
>victims of SHC are found in closed rooms,where a fire has started, they
>have been killed,and the amount of oxygen in the room has declined until
>the fire can do no more than smoulder.
>    Because there's no draught,the temperature in the room stays
>quite high.There are no flames,so no widespread destruction.If the
>victim has fallen against whatever was burning,then after a while they
>can start smouldering too,burning a bit like a candle,with their clothes
>as a wick.Eventually,the gradual burning of the floor or whatever might
>open a chimney and the whole lot might go up,or it might burn itself
>out,leaving a hot room with a mainly-destroyed body in it.The effects of
>the fire are apparently far enough from the effects of just putting a
>match to things that it all looks very mysterious.
>    That's what he said,anyway,and as he obviously knew more about
>fire than anybody I know,I'm not about to say that he's wrong.Does
>anybody else know enough to disprove this? Or is there a better theory?
>
>
>            G.


That's an interesting hypothesis.  If true, then there ought to be
cases where people walk in on a body in the process of wicking, as it
would take many hours to complete.  Has anyone heard of such a case?
Likewise, it should be easy to test the wicking hypothesis on a body
that's bound for the crematorium.  Surely of all the millions of
bodies burned, this has been tried.  I'd like to see the test results.
Hell, when I die I may donate my body for such a test (though I'm not
too keen on adding to the air pollution.)
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From: [e-mail] (Roy M. Silvernail)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: What has become of Kibo?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1993 21:46:26 CST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Villa CyberSpace, Minneapolis, MN
X-Newsreader: rusnews v0.99
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[e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:

>                                         -- K.
>                                         I talk just like Don Adams
>                                         at times.  It drives the
>                                         wimminfolk mad with desire.

Has you become the KiBlair?  What next, quotes?

Ack!
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Hey folks....
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 05:34:51 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas) writes:
>There is no "next chapter" ... that's all he wrote.
>
>I saved the file if there is interest I will repost
>
>Len
>--
>*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
>The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
>use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
>        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92

Hi Len,

Be looking for some email soon.

Don


--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Survey
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 93 04:23:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 9


    Seriously though, would a spectrographic analysis of the light
    reflected off one help to tell what they were made of?

... probably not.  A spectrographic analysis of light *generated* by
an object would tell you something about what kind of light-producing
technology is used, though.

Charles
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From: [e-mail] (Brad Kepley)
Subject: Re: SHC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Adm)
Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 12:05:50 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Larson) writes:
>
>That's an interesting hypothesis.  If true, then there ought to be
>cases where people walk in on a body in the process of wicking, as it
>would take many hours to complete.  Has anyone heard of such a case?

It's not likely that anyone would hear of such a case because it
wouldn't be remarkable.  Even if they did they wouldn't remember
it.

>Likewise, it should be easy to test the wicking hypothesis on a body
>that's bound for the crematorium.  Surely of all the millions of
>bodies burned, this has been tried.  I'd like to see the test results.

Why would your average creamatorium operator perform such a grim "test"?

>Hell, when I die I may donate my body for such a test (though I'm not
>too keen on adding to the air pollution.)

Go for it :)

--
Brad Kepley                  Internet         [e-mail]
Work-days                    Voice            [phone]
--
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From: [e-mail] (John L. Scott)
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 13:32:42 GMT
Message-ID: <scottj-050293082859@141.161.40.11>
X-Posted-From: iamac-1.dml.georgetown.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu
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In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Bear Giles) wrote:
[...]
> I enjoy stretching my perceptions, but that DS9 episode was silly.
> The writers tried to sound deep and instead wrote theater-of-the-absurd.
[...]
> Try reading Frank Herbert or David Brin for stories that challenge you
> without requiring suspension of disbelief.  (Ignoring FTL travel for the
> purpose of setting up a story, of course.  But _only_ that).

Thanks for that post.  I had much the same thing to say to that guy, but
after he implied that I have nothing to offer the human race because I
thought the Deep Space Nine writers did a terrible job, I just didn't have
the wherewithal to bother.

--John L. Scott
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Feb 93 01:32:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
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sttng
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From: [e-mail] (richard.m.brack)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 14:39:43 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 17


Would someone please go over the part of the show that dealt with
the actual alien?  I saw the video tape of the craft but the blasted
local TV station decided to interupt the show to tell everyone that
the owner of the Cincinnati Reds had been suspened.  As if that can't
wait until the nightly news!  So when they came back to the show
they said something about an alien but I didn't know what they were
talking about.  Was there an alien on the video tape?

Thanks!

Rich...
--
{ the itchman cometh   /-/         _          i don't want to be your angel }
{ [e-mail] /-/        _|_|_          i want to be your witch!    }
{ att!cbnews!itch \-\/-/         ( * )tch                 -yello            }
{                  \/\/           /^\                                       }
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology,alt.non.sequitur
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
Date: 5 Feb 1993 15:39:43 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] (Howard Berkey) says:
>>  "What are you doing, Dave?"
>
>"Emasculating you for not opening the goddam pod bay door, Hal."

Uh, but I thought HAL'S voice went _down_ a few octaves.  But there were those
telltale bubbles of blood and sperm floating around.  Oh wait, that was
Star Trek IV, not Space 1999.  (blush)

Mark
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From: [e-mail] (Per-Ake Dahl)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 93 12:44:10 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
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I have but on question. WHO ARE YOU JOHN WHINSTON??? WHAT ARE YOU??? an alien???
I mean, have have read a lot of crap but yours are outstanding.


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| /   |
|/    0
|   \_|_        [e-mail]
|     | \
|   _/ \_           "I'll be back, trust me."  -- T2
|
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: L. L.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  5 Feb 93 06:25:11 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

Dear Thought Senders: It should be noted that the method I mentioned
will work even if you don't use the Lapis L.  The crystal just
serves to put your mind on a certain frequency. You ability to send
messages will also increase if the person to whom you are sending
the message has a similar type crystal that is located near the
third eye (pineal gland).
John Winston.
Organization: Doctoral student, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  5 Feb 1993 10:32:35 -0500
From: Andy Kurtz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

>Why don't they just try to trace the fingerprint (or check the return
>address on the package - I believe UM made an error of putting one on
>there if ther wasn't one on the original package).

even if there wasn't a return address, there would still be a postmark
of some sort...  It was sent to "expert" Bob Oeschler (sp?).  Does
anyone know how to contact him?

ak
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Newagers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  5 Feb 93 06:36:38 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Warm Blooded Animals: I believe you will find that we in the
West are being bombarded by Newage Thought (which I consider just
plain old truth) in the following TV shows; Time Trac (or Track), Unsolved
Mysteries, Key West, Star Trek the Next Generation, Star Trek Deep
Space Nine and on about the 8th of Feb. we will have a new show
called Babalon 5 which is about like Star Trek Deep Space Nine.
Enjoy.
John Winston. The show Sightings is also on too.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Lady R.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  5 Feb 93 06:43:03 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Kiboites and other people: I find that Lady R. is a very interesting
person. She like to experiment with the mind and that in my opinion
is a good sign.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: SSELECTtar Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 35
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News File Owner)
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Organization: Florida State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 93 11:47:28 EST

In article <[e-mail]>,
   [e-mail] (Bear Giles) writes:
>
>                                   ....... he won't remember much because
> he won't be able to form the necessary _links_ for meaningful memory.  If I
> flash on your screen a random ordering of the NYC phone book how many numbers
> do you think you'll remember?  Or did you think human memory is like a big
> tape recorder, capable of recording arbitrary data?)
>
--

Some time ago when I was in my late teens, I was over at a friend's house
when her father demonstated a card trick on me.  He shuffled the cards and
then lifted and released the corner of the deck in such a way as to get a
glimpse of each card.  He then fanned them out, had me take a card and look
at it and then place it back in the deck.  He then folded them back into a
deck and proceded to turn them over face up.  After he passed 'my' card he
said the next card he turned over would be the card I had picked.  He then
reached back and turned 'my' card over.

I guess you have figured out that he had a photographic memory.  He found
the right card because it was out of order.  He used his ability to remember
things he had read in regard to his work as a chemist also.  I got to
thinking that we all had the potential to do the same thing.  That we
probably all recorded the info, but most of us could not consciously retrieve
it on demand as well as he did.  I think that information is available to our
subconscious and can be used if we learn the ability to 'read the waters'
of our intuition.

What do you'll think?


Have fun!

   =-Kathy->                                   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Rich 'mcmxciibo' Holmes)
Subject: Re: Tesla
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of Wed, 3 Feb 1993 14:30:38 GMT
Organization: Syracuse University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <stone.728749838@cwis>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 93 09:47:07 EST
Lines: 14

In article <stone.728749838@cwis> [e-mail] (Travis Stone) writes:

>Regarding good ol' Tesla:
>
>I've said it once before, and I'll say it here again: he was a genius
>AND a fruitcake.

He's a dessert topping!

--
- Rich "mcmxciibo" Holmes
"Grown men, he told himself, in flat contradiction of centuries of
accumulated evidence about the way grown men behave, do not behave
like this." -- Douglas Adams
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From: [e-mail] (mark.a.skala)
Subject: Re: SSELECTtar Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 17:51:56 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 45

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>,
>   [e-mail] (Bear Giles) writes:
>>
>>                                   ....... he won't remember much because
>> he won't be able to form the necessary _links_ for meaningful memory.  If I
>> flash on your screen a random ordering of the NYC phone book how many numbers
>> do you think you'll remember?  Or did you think human memory is like a big
>> tape recorder, capable of recording arbitrary data?)
>>
>--
>
>Some time ago when I was in my late teens, I was over at a friend's house
>when her father demonstated a card trick on me.  He shuffled the cards and
>then lifted and released the corner of the deck in such a way as to get a
>glimpse of each card.  He then fanned them out, had me take a card and look
>at it and then place it back in the deck.  He then folded them back into a
>deck and proceded to turn them over face up.  After he passed 'my' card he
>said the next card he turned over would be the card I had picked.  He then
>reached back and turned 'my' card over.
>
>I guess you have figured out that he had a photographic memory.  He found
>the right card because it was out of order.  He used his ability to remember
>things he had read in regard to his work as a chemist also.  I got to
>thinking that we all had the potential to do the same thing.  That we
>probably all recorded the info, but most of us could not consciously retrieve
>it on demand as well as he did.  I think that information is available to our
>subconscious and can be used if we learn the ability to 'read the waters'
>of our intuition.
>
>What do you'll think?
>
>
>Have fun!
>
>   =-Kathy->                                   [e-mail]

Although it is not impossible for your friend's father to have a
photographic memory, I think a much more plausible explanation for this
is that he watched YOU while he was turning over the cards, and after
YOU reacted slightly to seeing your card just being flipped over, he
then knew that was your card and identified it.

Mark A. Skala                            "Anything worth doing is worth
[e-mail]                       doing to excess."
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: SSELECTtar Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 19
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News File Owner)
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Organization: Florida State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 93 12:18:17 EST

In article <[e-mail]>,
   [e-mail] writes:
>                      ....   I think that information is available to our
> subconscious and can be used if we learn the ability to 'read the waters'
                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> of our intuition.
>
--
In reading over my post I realized that although it seemed the best phrase
to convey what I wanted to say, some may not know what it referred to.

When canoeing or kayaking down a river that has riffles or rapids, generally
you get in less trouble if you follow the main current and avoid the rocks.
You can tell where the main current is by reading the water.  The faster and
stronger the river, the more imortant it is to read the water correctly.

Have fun!

   =-Kathy->                                   [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: John Winston
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 18:23:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Per-Ake Dahl) writes:
>
>I have but on question. WHO ARE YOU JOHN WHINSTON??? WHAT ARE YOU??? an alien???
>I mean, have have read a lot of crap but yours are outstanding.

   They're certainly out standing in my kill file.

   But despite that I can't seem to avoid him because
   people insist on referencing his idiotic drool in
   their own posting as we see from (Mr/Ms?) Dahl, here!

   And meanwhile I get flamed for making comments about
   TV shows!


---peter



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From: [e-mail] (Chris Herborth)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: InterZONE Design
Subject: Re: Lady R.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
X-Software: HERMES GUS 1.04 Rev. Sep  5 1992
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1993 17:03:46 EST
Lines: 19

In <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Bigfooters:
> I just had a person I shall call Lady R. E-mail me some information
> from Canada. She has the ability to do Distant Viewing. She was able
> to tell me a lot about myself just by doing this, as to how I looked,
> my surroundings, the lamp I use by my computer and other things. She
> was very good at it.
> John Winston.

Cool!  Could Lady R tell me where I left my David Bowie concert shirt?

Or maybe she could tell me what's on my monitor?

Or maybe, "What's in my pockets?"

--
-------------------========================================-------------------
Chris Herborth
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: SSELECTtar Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 36
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News File Owner)
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Organization: Florida State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Date: 5 Feb 93 13:50:14 EST

In article <[e-mail]>,
   [e-mail] (mark.a.skala) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>
     [e-mail] writes:
>>Some time ago when I was in my late teens, I was over at a friend's house
>>when her father demonstated a card trick on me.  He shuffled the cards and
>>then lifted and released the corner of the deck in such a way as to get a
>>glimpse of each card.  He then fanned them out, had me take a card and look
>>at it and then place it back in the deck.  He then folded them back into a
>>deck and proceded to turn them over face up.  After he passed 'my' card he
>>said the next card he turned over would be the card I had picked.  He then
>>reached back and turned 'my' card over.
>>
>>I guess you have figured out that he had a photographic memory.  He found
>>the right card because it was out of order.  He used his ability to remember
>>things he had read in regard to his work as a chemist also...
>
> Although it is not impossible for your friend's father to have a
> photographic memory, I think a much more plausible explanation for this
> is that he watched YOU while he was turning over the cards, and after
> YOU reacted slightly to seeing your card just being flipped over, he
> then knew that was your card ...
--
There was no reason for Carol and her father to lie about his abilities.
Even I, and most other people, have a more limited photographic memory.
How often have you tried to find a paricular article or picture in a
magazine or newspaper you have glanced through and can 'see' in your mind
what the page looks like, where the article is located?  He just had a
little more detail in his mental pictures so that he could remember formulas
and other details by 'seeing' the page they were printed on.  I don't know
how long he could retain this information though.


Have fun!

   =-Kathy->                                   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Any Info on 2/2 UFO sighting?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: gold.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 19:06:23 GMT
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>Interesting.  I saw a Reuters article that said an egg shaped orange
>>light was chased by a cop near Oconomowoc (sp) Wisconsin.  This was
>>after a call that there was something sighted near I-94, which is a
>>major arterial between Chicago and Milwaukee and which I've driven
>>on a few hundred times.  For such a busy interstate there should have
>>been several tens to hundreds of witnesses depending on the time.
>
>    Exactly.  And how much does anyone here care to bet that
>    after a week or so of this newsgroup flapping its gums
>    about it, the result will be  . . . NOTHING.   No physical
>    evidence, no decent pictures, just another "he said, she
>    said" tempest in a tty.   That's how all these UFO stories
>    turn out.  Even when the UFO's allegedly show up over heavily
>    populated areas with major media outlets in the end the stories
>    just fade away with nothing to show.
>
>
> ---peter

So, Peter,
I'm not much on conspiracy theories, but what you just wrote does make
me wonder exactly WHY they always turn out this way.  Is it because
there was nothing there in the first place, therefore no witnesses,
or what?  What's your opinion?

Kellie M-S
[e-mail]
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Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 12:52:57 CST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Warminster UFO
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

I think this may be attributable to Aurora... the US secret Mach 7 (?)
airplane that has been talked about.
Ethan Haslett
[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Any Info on 2/2 UFO sighting?
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 20:20:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>>    Exactly.  And how much does anyone here care to bet that
>>    after a week or so of this newsgroup flapping its gums
>>    about it, the result will be  . . . NOTHING.   No physical
>>    evidence, no decent pictures, just another "he said, she
>>    said" tempest in a tty.   That's how all these UFO stories
>>    turn out.  Even when the UFO's allegedly show up over heavily
>>    populated areas with major media outlets in the end the stories
>>    just fade away with nothing to show.
>>
>So, Peter,
>I'm not much on conspiracy theories, but what you just wrote does make
>me wonder exactly WHY they always turn out this way.  Is it because
>there was nothing there in the first place, therefore no witnesses,
>or what?  What's your opinion?

   How about: because there's nothing to them in the first place?

   Look, it's hard enough to make a credible case that the
   _biggest event in the last few thousand years_ (i.e.,
   contact with an alien intelligence) could be kept
   secret by people who are all members of the same
   organization, e.g., the military.  But it's an even
   *wilder* claim that random members of the public, who
   just happen to be driving on an interstate, looking
   up from their suburban backyard, or crossing a city
   bridge could all be induced to keep quiet about some-
   thing that big.   I mean, if *I* saw things like what's
   been described here there's no way, short of killing me,
   that anyone could shut me up about it.   Moreover I
   frequently have camera equipment with me and since
   my specialty is nightime photography it frequently
   has fast film in it.   So I'd probably get good pic-
   tures and there's no way those pictures wouldn't be
   sent to every news organization in the country.

   Notice, BTW, that we've seen no further followups
   to the original claim about a "cigar-shaped" or orange
   egg-shaped object with any corroborating or additional
   information.     I'm not surprised.


---peter






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From: [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO Study Group.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 93 19:51:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Organization: University of Bergen, Norway
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear People: I believe you will find that the Finns are ahead of
|> us by one day.

Us? Who us? What us? The Finns are ahead of us by one hour.
What sort of nonsence is this, John?

Or - did you mean US, not us? Uuups, silly me, no offense and all that,
please everyone put me in their killfiles... :-)

And the time difference between Finland and US East-coast is seven
hours, BTW.

|> John Winston.

--
    ___   ___
__  |__)   |    Bjoern Tore Sund (BT)   Quote: "Nothing!"
    |__)   |    [e-mail]              - Marvin
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From: [e-mail] (Philip Taylor)
Subject: The Thing from Outer Warminster
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Nntp-Posting-Host: soulianis.ast.cam.ac.uk
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Royal Greenwich Observatory
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 18:27:50 GMT
Lines: 31

>My parents found this article in the June 6th 1965 edition of News Of The World
>which I thought may be of interest to you.

Looks like they need to a lot of catching up on the news!

>Article is as follows:

>        The Thing from Outer Warminster


Almost the whole of the Warminster myth has now been discredited. The story was
a hoax begun by the local newspaper and took off as such stories do. The myth was
inflated and sustained by a local journalist called Arthur Shuttlewood, who wrote
a series of increasingly outlandish books on the subject.

I could give give you chapter and verse but don't have the references here with
me right now - a lot of the detailed expose was completed by John Spencer of
BUFORA fairly recently.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Philip Taylor,
Software Engineering Group,                  INTERNET : [e-mail]
Royal Greenwich Observatory,
Madingley Road,
CAMBRIDGE.
CB3 0EZ.
UK
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Abductions.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (James J. Lippard)
Date: 5 Feb 1993 13:43 MST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>Subject: Bud Hopkins.
>>  I recently read something in a tabloid magazine and lost the article but I
>>did find an abbreviated version of the incident in another more established
>>magazine so here is how the information went; ......UFO ABDUCTION. If the
>>following story is true, this could be the biggest UFO case of the century.
>>  At the 1992 MUFON  Conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico, Budd Hopkins
>>disclosed that a woman, Linda Cortile (not her real name), was allegedly
>>abducted from her 12th-floor apartment building in New York City.
>>  Not only that, but her abduction was witnessed by several people.  One of
>>those was supposedly Javier Perez de Cuellar, former Secretary General of
>>the United Nations. Ostensibly, the abduction event was staged for this
>>man's benefit.
>>  In addition to de Cuellar, his two agents, Dan and Richard, also in the car,
>>witnessed the alleged event, as did a woman driving across the Brooklyn
>>Bridge.  Stay tuned to FATE for more information. This is proving to be an
>>explosively controversaial case, and we will keep you informed.
>>JW, So there you have part of the story.
>>Source of Information: January 1993/FATE page 9.
>>John Winston.
>
>Well, you must be the only one that hasn't read the Stefula,Butler and
>Hansen report on the Linda "Cortile" (nee Napolitano) case..
>
>For the record, Jerome Clark of FATE has publically called George Hansen
>"Torquemada", but yet Clark hasn't refuted not even *one* of Hansen's
>claims/challenges/charges. I'd hardly put much credibility into Jerome
>Clark as a fellow co-conspirator but he _does_ have his facts mixed up.

Clark has recently agreed to accept for refereeing a critical paper
by Hansen for the _International UFO Reporter_.  He will not himself
referee it.
   I've also heard rumor that Clark has recently lost his job at _Fate_--
for being too skeptical!

Jim Lippard              [e-mail]
Dept. of Philosophy      [e-mail]
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
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From: [e-mail] (Marvin Minsky)
Subject: Re: SSELECTtar Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Cc: minsky
Organization: MIT Media Laboratory
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 19:06:46 GMT
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>,
>   [e-mail] (Bear Giles) writes:
>>
>>                                   ....... he won't remember much because
>> he won't be able to form the necessary _links_ for meaningful memory.  If I
>> flash on your screen a random ordering of the NYC phone book how many numbers
>> do you think you'll remember?  Or did you think human memory is like a big
>> tape recorder, capable of recording arbitrary data?)
>
>Some time ago when I was in my late teens, I was over at a friend's house
>when her father demonstated a card trick on me.  He shuffled the cards and
 ...
>I guess you have figured out that he had a photographic memory.  He found
>the right card because it was out of order.  He used his ability to remember
>things he had read in regard to his work as a chemist also....
>
>   =-Kathy->                                   [e-mail]

I doubt it.  Did he actually tell you that he could memorize an entire shuffled
deck at a glance?  No psychologist in the past 50 years has been able
to demonstrate a subject with such an ability.  (I discount the report
in Luria's "The Mind of a Mnemonist" because (1) apparently Luria did
not do careful tests and (2) his subject was a mnemonic stage
performer as (I conjecture) he knew many tricks for producing his
illusions).

There are many ways to do that trick.  An easy way is to for the
performer to bend the deck a little while you're holding the card you
picked.  Later, when it is back in the deck, and gets exposed, it will
be easily detectable because it will slightly lift away from the
others.  And there are dozens of other ways that any magicion can
demonstrate to you.

Of course, if your friend's father asserted that he had this ability,
that's a different matter....

.

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From: [e-mail] (Danny Stimpson)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Montana
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 19:54:54 GMT
Lines: 9

Did anyone hear any discussion about the bright red flares (lights) in
the UFO video on UM?  It was mentioned briefly, but no theories as to
what it might have been or why the UFO was hovering over the red glow.


Danny Stimpson

[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Ed Blasinski)
Subject: Guardian
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 20:43:13 GMT
Lines: 8


    The document that was shown as a DOD document was nothing but
a crude representation of an actual document. Anybody with a half
decent word processor and a PC could have done a better job.




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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Protocols of Z.
Keywords: cia, mj12, rothschild, khazars, bolsheviks, russia
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 93 21:19:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear People: I believe you will find that part of the Protocols of Z.
>is reproduced in the book Behold the Pale Horse by Cooper. You better
>hope this information is not true and I'm not saying it is true or
>false but if it is true then we are in trouble. This information is
>bad stuff.
>John Winston.

Well well John....finally plucking a sensitive nerve!
Congratulations! Sincerely!

In My Humble Opinion the Protocols of the Elders of Sion (not
the spelling folks)...are absolutely true.

In the book entitled, "Holy Blood/Holy Grail" the two authors
who also happen to be anthropologists/archeologists discuss
the Priore de Sion (sp?) in a certain area of France as the
originating source for the protocols which were then
misdirected to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to remove
any suspicion from whom the had actually originated.

The document, "Conspirator's Hierarchy: The Story of the
Committee of 300" provides further backup for the protocols as
do the 80 articles that Dr Beter had written concerning the
current political tension as it exists among the "true"
warring factions which have never been America and the
Communist bloc. Neither has it been a war between the world
and the true Jewish state and their true decendants.

Upon reading the document, "Secret Societies and Subversive
Movements" by now deceased nesta Webster you will find even
further validation for the protocols. This doument traces the
historic evolution of today's current fraternal organizations
from the very inception of their root beginnings.

And when you top all this
off by looking at the political history of our nation's
presidents over the last 20 some odd years and their actions
you will begin to wonder too!

The information is there.....the books are available..although
you will have to work to find them. But then again, nothing
that is gained easily is considered of any worth...good
luck..have fun.....see you in the funnies!

ciao!
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
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From: [e-mail] (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: SSELECTtar Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: QQQCLC
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1993 21:47:30 GMT
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>,
>   [e-mail] (mark.a.skala) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]>
>     [e-mail] writes:
>>>[old card trick]
>>>
>>>I guess you have figured out that he had a photographic memory.  He found
>>>the right card because it was out of order.  He used his ability to remember
>>>things he had read in regard to his work as a chemist also...

    Nope.

>> I think a much more plausible explanation for this
>> is that he watched YOU while he was turning over the cards, and after
>> YOU reacted slightly to seeing your card just being flipped over, he
>> then knew that was your card ...

    Nope.

>There was no reason for Carol and her father to lie about his abilities.

    Magicians don't tell their tricks, my friend; spoils it. I know
that card trick. I don't have a photographic memory. It's very easy.
And, no, I won't give it away.

                        Kayembee
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1993 00:10:02 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (barry.o.olson) writes:
> :In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]> writes:
> :
> :> that the tape was sent to investigators by a person calling himself "Guardian".
> :
> :the finger-print "guardian" mystic could be Gary S___l_a_? He hasn't
> :been reporting in lately, and the film was obviously made by an insider
> :which we all know Gary is.
>
> Why don't they just try to trace the fingerprint (or check the return
> address on the package - I believe UM made an error of putting one on
> there if ther wasn't one on the original package).
>
There was a print on the original. You may be thinking of the re-enactment
portion of the program.
The sender left no return address either.


barry--
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From: [e-mail] (Heidi Vogel)
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Hi there..
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Robotics Engineering
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 93 23:47:57 GMT
Lines: 11

    Hi there.. Am I doing this right?

    How do you know if a blonde used the computer?
    There's whiteout on the screen!

    I'm a semi-new user and I am having a bit of a problem with E-Mail and post-reply. Go figure considering my handle.. Can you help me? Anyone?


                            ^^^^^^^BLONDIE


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From: [e-mail] (Danny Smith)
Subject: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
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Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc.
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1993 00:14:33 GMT
Lines: 7

 I've been a little out of touch lately. I remember the Gulf Breeze UFO
 sightings and the guy who had a video and numerous pictures of UFOs. What
 has become of that story? It is mentioned in a post as the Gulf Breeze
 fiasco. Was this guy revealed as a hoax? any details would be appreciated.
 I need you guys to get me back up to speed.


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From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Roswell Testimony
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Feb 93 18:47:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Setec Astronomy
Lines: 53

Pardon me for interupting the Great Star Trek Debate with something
related to the topic of this newsgroup:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>Yes, I suppose I was unclear.  I meant that someone in the conspiracy would
>come forward.  No matter how truthful a witness is, he will not be as
>knowledgable as one of the supposed conspirators.  We'd need someone
>relatively high in the conpiracy's control structure to come forward with
>evidence, not just his word.
>
>Imagine what a captured alien spacecraft would mean.  The best minds in
>science and engineering working furiously to understand what they've found,

Hmmm...not necessarily.  This may be begging the question, but as I
understand it, Bob Lazar claims that the reason he spilled the beans
is because the people working at Area 51 are _not_ best minds in science
and engineering. (Don't infer that I believe Lazar.)

>management to coordinate the effort including keeping it secret and deciding
>who and how to relay information to, and spin off projects to test under-
>standing of the new technology.  More and more projects to keep secret -
>not impossible, but added difficulty.  Next, the project would be decades
>old, so we'd have nearly entirley new crews of workers.  More difficulty in
>maintaining secrecy.  All of this is possible but seems to me unlikely
>compared to more earthly explanations.

Well, I think a reasonable person would conclude that _something_
unusual happened at Roswell, and that the military doesn't want
the truth known.  Still, it's a big leap from there to alien
spaceships.  I'm uncomfortable with the either/or situtation:
EITHER the truth is so scary that that the conspiracy to hide
it is absolutely airtight, OR nothing happened in the first place.

(It's difficult for me to be objective about the Roswell Incident,
because I'm from this part of the country originally.  I grew up
hearing all these stories long before anybody wrote a book about
it.  It's a sort of "everybody knows that a UFO crashed out there"
kind of thing among the locals.)

>wreckage.  Maybe that's the real coverup - an empty workshop!  :-)

Ooooh! What a twisted mind you have!  I like it :-)

     "...and that's the problem with aliens, isn't it?
      You can just never be sure."  --Peter Vinkman


--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Lady R.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  5 Feb 93 17:41:54 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear People: I should have said She likes...Pardon me.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: L. L.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  5 Feb 93 17:31:20 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear L. L. Users and Other People: I have the feeling that quite a
few people are sending me telepathic messages especially Lady R.
I might give you a tip. If you put out bad thoughts to a person
who does only send you love, your bad thoughts will return to you
to the square of what you put out.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Russians
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  5 Feb 93 17:39:05 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I am finding that the Russians have whole departments
in their colleges dedicated to the study of ESP.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Marketta Pajula)
Subject: Re: UFO Study Group.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
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Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1993 02:22:44 GMT
Lines: 8



About the time difference. Ie from the future, so you in U.S.
are a little ahead. The norwegian are allways ahead, no matter where
we come from.


Olli Pajula
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Any Info on 2/2 UFO sighting?
Date: 5 Feb 1993 19:23:27 -0600
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ub.d.umn.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
:In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
:
:>>    Exactly.  And how much does anyone here care to bet that
:>>    after a week or so of this newsgroup flapping its gums
:>>    about it, the result will be  . . . NOTHING.   No physical
:>>    evidence, no decent pictures, just another "he said, she
:>>    said" tempest in a tty.   That's how all these UFO stories
:>>    turn out.  Even when the UFO's allegedly show up over heavily
:>>    populated areas with major media outlets in the end the stories
:>>    just fade away with nothing to show.
:>>
:>So, Peter,
:>I'm not much on conspiracy theories, but what you just wrote does make
:>me wonder exactly WHY they always turn out this way.  Is it because
:>there was nothing there in the first place, therefore no witnesses,
:>or what?  What's your opinion?
:
:   How about: because there's nothing to them in the first place?
:
:   Look, it's hard enough to make a credible case that the
:   _biggest event in the last few thousand years_ (i.e.,
:   contact with an alien intelligence) could be kept
:   secret by people who are all members of the same
:   organization, e.g., the military.  But it's an even
:   *wilder* claim that random members of the public, who
:   just happen to be driving on an interstate, looking
:   up from their suburban backyard, or crossing a city
:   bridge could all be induced to keep quiet about some-
:   thing that big.   I mean, if *I* saw things like what's
:   been described here there's no way, short of killing me,
:   that anyone could shut me up about it.   Moreover I
:   frequently have camera equipment with me and since
:   my specialty is nightime photography it frequently
:   has fast film in it.   So I'd probably get good pic-
:   tures and there's no way those pictures wouldn't be
:   sent to every news organization in the country.

I, too, am skeptical about the reports in populated areas where only one
or two people see something.  However, I am intruiged by the sightings
in populated areas where dozens to hundreds say they've seen it.

:   Notice, BTW, that we've seen no further followups
:   to the original claim about a "cigar-shaped" or orange
:   egg-shaped object with any corroborating or additional
:   information.     I'm not surprised.

That's because, as I pointed out, that I gave all the information I had,
and was responding to the original poster who was interested in that
information.  The alledged event took place in a rural area, so I doubt
any Internet users saw the object.  Remember, I was just giving
information I heard on the news (no, not one of those magazine shows, or
shows like Unsolved Mysteries - that's not a news show).  The only thing
claimed was that there was an object that could be described as cigar
shaped that people could not identify (definition of a UFO).  Nothing
about aliens or anything else.  I see no reason to dispute the claim as
it was reported by dozens of people in a rural area who have nothing to
gain gain but ridicule from people like yourself.

:---peter

    Thanks
    Robert Fentiman

InterNet: [e-mail]
At: University of Minnesota, Duluth

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Lethbridge
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1993 05:45:26 GMT
Lines: 5

hi, i am a new person to this system, but i don not agree with you mike.
i hardly watch tv, the thing is lucky if i sit infront of it for more than
a few minutes each morning--just long enough to get the weather. so whats yourbeef about people who say one thing butdo another? have you never told an off coloured truth?

shirley
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From: [e-mail] (Wayne Long)
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin, Texas
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1993 03:17:13 GMT
Lines: 13

[e-mail] writes:

>Dear Monster Lovers: I feel a dinosaur story coming on. Don't tell
>anyone but I am one of the few people on earth who believe that there
>are a few dinosaurs still living in remote areas today.
>John Winston

Ok, we won't tell anyone and you don't say?  :-)
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Wayne Long                      Internet: [e-mail]
6501 William Cannon Drive West  UUCP: cs.texas.edu!oakhill!risc!wcl
Austin, Texas 78735-8598        Phone [phone]  FAX: [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Any Info on 2/2 UFO sighting?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 93 02:39:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com


---peter,

Thank you for your wise insight. You will go down in history as one of the
great open minds of the millenia, along with Robert Sheaffer, Phil Klass, &
Carl Sagan.

Sheesh it's like all of you have an axe to grind with this phenomena. I
find it curious that you continue to hover within this newsgroup just to
hack it to pieces. I smell a rat, or a bunch of angry shallow people who
have nothing better to do.

Like I have said soooooo many times before......" Comfort not in your
slumber, for when you awaken, it may be too late."

Rod

--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$| The
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,| Nite
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."                  | Net
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$|
Knight
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Abduction Stats
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
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Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1993 02:47:10 GMT
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Hello all;

I have posted this question to SUFOG members(slight modifications added), I
was wondering if anyone else has considered this?

SUFOG Members,

I was wondering about a statistic that I don't ever recall hearing about,
but
which I feel could hold some keys to answering some questions about this
phenomena..

What percentage of abductees/experiencers are physically
challenged/handicapped?
I.E. quadraplegics-paraplegics-blind-deaf,etc. Has there ever been a
study?
This might shed some light on the motivation behind what is going on.

Is this strictly a phenomena that does not effect that particular section
of our/any society or is it just not reported enough to make a difference.
You would think that physically challenged/handicapped  would put up less
of a fight to the captors/abductors & make easier prey.


Let me know what you think of this angle.....

Rod

--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$| The
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,| Nite
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."                  | Net
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$|
Knight
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Kelly/Kelley AFB underground facility?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Is there or isn't there?
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
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a.a.v.folk,


Here is another SUFOG posting that you might have some information on.
Oh....SUFOG= Serious UFO Group


Serious group,

I have just finished talking with an X-airman, he was in the USAF in the
early
sixties. He had Q5 Top Secret security clearence. He was an electronics
technician & crypto expert, as was his father before him. I wanted to share
this
information with you all before I brought it out in a.a.v, for obvious
reasons.

I also wanted to see if anyone had heard about an underground base at
Kelley/Kelly? AFB somewhere in Texas.

He had some quite interesting stories that he told me, they are from
memory, so
they are not verbatim. Here is one of them:

Timeline 1960-1963.....We will call him airman Smith:

At the time this occured, airman Smith was stationed in W.Germany. One
night he
was orded to fly stateside for a hush-hush emergency. His orders were to
secure
damaged equiptment,store said equiptment in footlocker provided to him, sit
on
the locker, guard it with his life until he delivered it to an undisclosed
location, where he was to disembark & repair damaged equiptment.

He landed in some unmarked landing strip somewhere in the Nevada desert,
where
he met up with two other airmen from two other spots on the globe. They
all
traveled together to the CRASH site in an old jeep. The craft was one of
ours,
proto-pre-SR71 or something like that. He stated it was some kind of
(fast)
recon bird. They (the technicians) each had a piece of equiptment assigned
to
them. They were each responsable for those individual pieces & were not
allowed
to talk to each other about what they were doing.

After retrieving the required parts, the were flown to Kelly/Kelley? AFB
in
Texas. They landed with no problem, this is where it gets kinda weird. As
they
are taxiing down the runway, they pull in between two hangars & were
waiting for
what he assumed would be one of thoses tow-vehicles to pull them into the
hangar. The next thing he felt was very strange, he felt like they were
going
down, & after about 15 seconds as things got darker, he was quite sure of
it. He
estimated that it took about 3-5minutes to get to what he thought the
bottom
was. After diembarking from the plane, he was greeted by some gents that
had
black uniforms & black berets'. They had no markings or insignias at all.
He did
recall what he perceived as an enlisted man call one of the soliders
Lieutenant.

The Hanger/ was estimated to be about 100yds long & 60-100ft high, in a
semi-dome configuration or quansit-hut(sp?) I didn't get a chance to ask
how
wide, but he did say the aircraft could be turned around fully in the
area.
There were no windows in the walls, only reinforced steel doors. He(airman
Smith) felt that this area branched off in four different directions, he
didn't
elaborate why he felt this except to say that that is the impression he
got.

He & the other technicians were then escorted to separate small but highly
sophisticated labs. He said the equiptment that he was allowed to use was
years
ahead of whatever was on the open market. He said that the most of the
test
equiptment he used was fairly easy to use as opposed to some of the
equiptment
he used on a daily basis.

 They (The airmen) were to analyze the equiptment & repair it. Each of the
labs
were equipped with sleeping quarters & all meals were brought to them. He
was
there for three days & did not see another soul(with the exceptions of the
 guards of course) , & was not allowed to roam the area at all. He was
debriefed
before he left for quite a few hours.

Not a barn burner of a story, but I felt it might be interesting to some of
you.
When I get some TIME, I will fwd some of his other stories.

Thanks ,

Rod
--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$| The
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,| Nite
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."                  | Net
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$|
Knight
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From: [e-mail] (David C. Williss)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology,alt.non.sequitur
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
Date: 6 Feb 1993 05:23:29 GMT
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Lines: 26
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In a previous article, [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley) says:

>
>In a previous article, [e-mail] (Howard Berkey) says:
>>>  "What are you doing, Dave?"
>>
>>"Emasculating you for not opening the goddam pod bay door, Hal."
>
>Uh, but I thought HAL'S voice went _down_ a few octaves.  But there were those
>telltale bubbles of blood and sperm floating around.  Oh wait, that was
>Star Trek IV, not Space 1999.  (blush)
>
>Mark
>

You mean Star Trek VI.  Star Trek IV was the whales.  VI was the one
with dead klingons and klingong blood floating around without gravity.
But neither one of them were Space 1999.  Hal was in 2001.  ;-)


--
        -Dave Williss
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standards are great!  Everybody should have one of their own!
The opinions stated above are Mine!  All Mine!  You can't have them.
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From: [e-mail] (Josh N. Vander Berg)
Subject: Re: Abductions.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kalamazoo College
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1993 14:47:28 GMT
Lines: 11

An astronomy lecturer who spoke at our college made the suggestion that if
anyone in the audience was later in life "abducted" by some sort of alien
culture, that STEAL something before they come back.

Good advice I would think :)

-Josh

|| Before you judge me take a look at you||Josh Vander Berg||Never stop   ||
|| Can't you find something better to do ||[e-mail]||asking "why?"||
|| Point the finger, slow to understand  ||KalamazooCollege||=============||
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From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: Kelly/Kelley AFB underground facility?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Is there or isn't there?
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
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References: <[e-mail]>
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Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Rod Beckwith) writes:

> [ story of 'hidden hi-tech base' at Kelly AFB ]
>Rod
>--
>Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$| The
>Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,| Nite
>[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."                  | Net
>                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$|

Kelly AFB is - or was when I lived there - a tactical training field
connected to Randolph AFB and Lackland AFB in the middle of San Antonio,
Texas proper.  Kelly/Randolph is where Lindbergh and thousands of other AF
pilots learned to fly.  It is a contiguous part of the urban sprawl of San
Antonio - not your ideal 'secret air base', in my view.  There are certainly
better AFB locations around the world to carry out advanced R&D on anything.

But that's neither here nor there.  What I really want to know, Rod, is
when can I buy an Indigo cheap?  Talk about yer advanced technology.......

<X>


--
   ***********************************************************************
   *          Michael D. Whitten  [e-mail]               *
   *        "Psst.  Hey, Guido.  It's all so clear to me now..."         *
   ***********************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Subject: Re: Russians
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1993 15:50:47 GMT
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According to the book: UFO Chronicles of the Soviet Union, A
Cosmic Samizdat by Jacques Vallee, there is a museum of Soviet
achievements in Moscow that has a whole section dedicated to
UFO's includes physical evdience.  The book is very good and
I usually don't like Vallee books.

Another good book is: Fire from Heaven - A study of Spontaneous
Combustion in Human Beings by Michael Harrison.  He covers
the topic of UFOs and cattle mutilation.  Another very interesting
book.  Both books where in the my local library.


--
============================================================
  "No creature that is intelligent and with the right
   values is an alien to me."
                        John Salter
============================================================
    Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
============================================================


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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Silvia.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 93 14:41:44 GMT
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Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Ghostbusters: I believe you will find that Silvia Brown was
on the TV show Sightings last night. I have had the privilege of
talking to her at a lecture she was giving at a Singles Bar on
time. She does know a lot about ghost but does get in trouble with
the law at times. I'm sure Robert S. can tell you all about that.
John Winston.
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Subject: Re: SSELECTtar Trek: Deep Space Nine.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail]
Date: 5 Feb 93 17:20:40 PST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Naval Air Weapons Station
Lines: 33

> In article <[e-mail]>,
>    [e-mail] (mark.a.skala) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]>
>      [e-mail] writes:
>>>Some time ago when I was in my late teens, I was over at a friend's house
>>>when her father demonstated a card trick on me.  He shuffled the cards and
>>>then lifted and released the corner of the deck in such a way as to get a
>>>glimpse of each card.  He then fanned them out, had me take a card and look
>>>at it and then place it back in the deck.  He then folded them back into a
>>>deck and proceded to turn them over face up.  After he passed 'my' card he
>>>said the next card he turned over would be the card I had picked.  He then
>>>reached back and turned 'my' card over.
>>>
>>>I guess you have figured out that he had a photographic memory.  He found
>>>the right card because it was out of order.  He used his ability to remember
>>>things he had read in regard to his work as a chemist also...
>>
>> Although it is not impossible for your friend's father to have a
>> photographic memory, I think a much more plausible explanation for this
>> is that he watched YOU while he was turning over the cards, and after
>> YOU reacted slightly to seeing your card just being flipped over, he
>> then knew that was your card ...
> --

I've done this trick.  No photographic memory or reading a person's expression
required.  I'm willing to bet he only memorized the *bottom* card.  Then
manipulated the deck (by cutting it, whatever) in such a way that his memorized
bottom card was right next to your selected one.  As he was going through the
deck, once he found "his" card, he knew the next one would be "yours".

                dave
-----
David S. Goppelt                       Internet: [e-mail]
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Date: Saturday, 6 Feb 1993 11:15:58 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Subject: subscription
Lines: 2

Just to let averyone know we are accepting new subscribers from March 1 to
April 15, for newsletter "Nefilim Forum"
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Magnetic field detector.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
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[e-mail] wrote:

: Dear Folk: A well educated Russian friend of mine took a coathanger,
: bent it into a certain configuration and checked out my magnetic field
: around my body. It was quite a demonstration.

That's nothing.  Have him do it *without* the coat hanger.
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177
(and the Gang of Four - Snowcat, Isis, Blackie, and Sandalwood the Rabbit!)

"It is your resistance to 'what is' that causes your suffering."   -- Buddha
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Segey U.
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[e-mail] wrote:

: Dear One and All: Welcome to the noble people of Russia. I am presently
: making contact with a 38 year old man in Russia who is on the
: Physic-Technical Faculty of a University. He is interested in knowing
: things about ESP in the West.

Bullshit.  Everyone knows that folks in Russia are *far* ahead of us in
research into ESP.
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177
(and the Gang of Four - Snowcat, Isis, Blackie, and Sandalwood the Rabbit!)

"It is your resistance to 'what is' that causes your suffering."   -- Buddha
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From: [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
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  Danny:

  The gulf breeze situation is still on going. In the past may people have
  Said it was a hoax. I myself have gone down to Gulf Breeze to look into
  this.  I met with Bruce macabee while I was down their it was a very
  very interesting few days!  I talked with some of the people that have
  seen things around the area and flying over the Bay its self. The witness
  that I talked to was not a crack pot. He was a person that knew what he say
  and understood how others may think it was not real.

  I talked with Bruce for some time and he was sure that somthing was going
  on in the area.  As to what it was he could not say he felt that what was
  or is being seen is not anything of this planet.  He and I both agreed that
  this area will be active for some time to come.


      ([e-mail] )

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From: [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries: Guardian
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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  The Guardian video is one of the best seen in many years!  The case is
 Very strange in that the Documentation that came with the Tape was determin
 to be a hoax but the Tape was NOT.  The amount of Tech that would be needed
 to set such a situation up could not have been missed by the witness that
 saw the object trough her window. The Sound on the tape did not produce any
 other sound other than dogs barking at a distance which investagators feel
 where the dogs at the witnesses house. No tracks where found in the area that
 would lead to heavy equipment being in the area that would be needed to set
 such a situation up.

 As you saw on the UM show the tape is on that runs a chill up the spine. The
 perosn operating the video cam came over a hill with it running and caught
 object on the ground. It is by far the best I have seen to this date.

 ([e-mail])
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1993 23:14:12 GMT
Lines: 0

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From: [e-mail] (Simon E. Booth)
Subject: Re: Guardian
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Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Blasinski) writes:
>
>    The document that was shown as a DOD document was nothing but
>a crude representation of an actual document. Anybody with a half
>decent word processor and a PC could have done a better job.
>
>
>
>


The video looked like it could have been legitimate, but that was blown with
the bogus 'secret documents'.

The forger IMHO went a little overboard and ended up making the 'documents'
look TOO official, with the blatantly conspicuous(sp?) Canadian markings
all over them, especially the huge maple leaf on one of them.

I'm not sure about Canadian DOD documents, but I've seen plently of 'official'
(but not secret!) US Air Force papers (my father was in the ed on standard
letterhead with the US Air Force seal and 'United States Air Force'
across the top.

I mean, I've never seen an Air Force document with a huge American flag
emblazoned on them.  :-)

Plus, why would a Canadian DOD document mention alleged US secret UFO
facilities?  Unless NATO treaties also cover joint activities with UFOs.

But, the video did look interesting.

Simon

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From: [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Guardian
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
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References: <[e-mail]>
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  I do agree that the papers that were shown did not meet up to what
 Classified documents look like. I too agree that they were hoaxed But I
 look at the video and have to wonder! I know of a few people that have
 looked at this and can not say the video was hoaxed! IT provides an
 interesting case to look at.  One why would the person or persons
 take a video of this quality and then send a paper with it that would
 ask questions and point to a hoax? Two the witness that saw the object
 trough her window. She has been proven not to have known anything in
 advance about this that it just happend.  Three the sound on the Video
 you can hear the person with the Video cam walking trough the field and
 hear the Dogs barking from the farm house where the Witness was at.

 Yes this is a very interesting case!!!

  ([e-mail])
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Any Info on 2/2 UFO sighting?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Feb 93 04:36:48 GMT
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    [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
    That's how all these UFO stories turn out.

... I wish to publicly thank Peter for saving us all a lot of trouble.
I further recommend that we use his philosophy in all our daily lives:
question nothing.  Ever.  You'll feel better for it.  Really.

Charles

PS - Oh yeah; :-)
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From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: subscription
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What is this newsletter about?


--
============================================================
  "No creature that is intelligent and with the right
   values is an alien to me."
                        John Salter
============================================================
    Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
============================================================
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From: [e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks)
Subject: Re: Guardian
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Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
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Curt A. Humphrey writes:
>  I do agree that the papers that were shown did not meet up to what
> Classified documents look like. I too agree that they were hoaxed But I
> look at the video and have to wonder! I know of a few people that have
> looked at this and can not say the video was hoaxed! IT provides an
> interesting case to look at.  One why would the person or persons
> take a video of this quality and then send a paper with it that would
> ask questions and point to a hoax?

The video could be a hoax too.

>Two the witness that saw the object
> trough her window. She has been proven not to have known anything in
> advance about this that it just happend.

Probably just in the right place at the wrong time.

>Three the sound on the Video
> you can hear the person with the Video cam walking trough the field and
> hear the Dogs barking from the farm house where the Witness was at.

I've had no trouble overdubbing Bill Clinton's speeches on video shot
of monkeys at the zoo.  There's not much to it.

> Yes this is a very interesting case!!!

Not really.

Rob U
--
-       Rob Unglenieks             REAL race cars DON'T wear BOWTIES       -
-  "It is the foreign element that commits our crimes.   There is no       -
-   native criminal class except Congress."  [Samuel Langhorne Clemens]    -
-  (Don't look at me, I DIDN'T vote for Clinton.  Will Engineer For Food)  -
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From: [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Guardian
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
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  As far as I know I did not say the Video was not a Hoax! I just made a point
 That it was interesting and made one wonder a bit.  This case has been on
 going for some time.  UM just got the chance to air it this week this case
 has been under investagation for some time now.  And if the Video is a Hoax
 they have not been able to find anything that points to this sence the
 investagation has been going on.

  If in fact the video is a hoax then it is one of the best ones that have
 been done!

                                     Curt

 ([e-mail])

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Meteor.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun,  7 Feb 93 08:10:44 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 76

Subject: Meteor.
  Those of you who are not happy usless someones is scaring you half to death
are going to be happy by what I am now going to say.  I follow a lot of
predictions by people and I don't know whether this one is true or not but
when I mentioned before about the predicted meteor that is supposed to hit
us, people asked me to tell them if some more information comes my way. Here
is some more information that showed up in my mail yesterday, that comes
from a cattle grower down in Paraguay........ The information about the
planet with the name METROS which has a belt of meteorites around it, I
received in german and I only can give you an address in Germany where you
can get the two booklets "Dimensionsprung" and "Der Aufstieg" for a (cetain
price) from Dr. Dorit I. Becker, Rottstr. 26,  W-4923 Extertal, Germany (Air
Mail)
  These are messages from our brothers and sisters in  space and from masters;
you have to make a clear difference, this is not a production of human mind,
our brothers and sisters from the space can not appear on television and say
 "Hello, there will be some meteorites hitting the earth."  This may cause a
panic and/or many people wouldn't believe it.
  So the only way at the moment is, to give those messages to persons working
in the light and spread them in a personal way.
  First of  all we have to underestand, that our brothers and sisters of space
are not little green men, but strong persons living a life of unconditional
love. They love us very much, but they can not interfere with our free will,
they respect our free will over all, so they can give us only messages -
nothing more and we have to see, if we do something or not.
  So I urge all people I now in California to leave California now! There will
be no way out, because even by walking you will find your surrounded by
water in lower places which will  be hot (cooking) because the magma from
the inner earth is coming out, so you can not swim through.
  You have not to fear the meteorites, the biggest one will come down in
China, because China is continueing its atomic-tests, even if the China
leaders had received many warnings from the masters not to continue with
these tests, because they alter not only the material structure of our
earth, but also it is causing negative spirtiual influences.
  You in California have to fear the seaquakes caused by the meteorites which
will lead to big waves bringing water far into the land and at the sametime
also starting earthquakes all over California and the clefts soon will fill
with hot water.
  This is not the end of the world, but a necessary cleansing _ process that
the earth can come to a higher pattern.
  In the flat land of the Midwest you will practically not be affected by the
events, on the other hand also the east coast will be hit, there may be even
more water, but less earth-quakes.
  All coasts around the world will be affected by this even and this will
happen in the year, which we call 1993, but in real time is 2005, because we
are 13 years ahead of the time we count.
  That astronomers have not detected yet the  planet METROS so far, has its
reason in winding of  space, they believe that space  is straight, but it
isn't,  space is like the sea in waves and because of its winding, you can
not see all, ask NASA just every week they detect a new star, never seen
before, this is because they are coming out of a wave (valley).
  Many people will not believe it, until it happens, so we can not help them,
but those, who understand, that our brothers and sisters of space and our
masters have no reason to lie to us, those persons will take action now and
leave California now even if they have their work, house and all in
California, but they will have nothing at all, if they stay in California.
  You have to feel in your heart, that it is true.
  And please when you are going, store some food, drinking water and medicine,
people will come across your way and will need food (and help).
  We all want, that this drastic change will not happen, but the earth must go
through this, otherwise the developing of earth and mankind is not possible.
 If I get more information in german, should I send you this in german?
Wishing you all the best I remain for today, Yours,   Georges McOrleon
CdC 3252
Asuncion
PARAGUAY (Air Mail)
JW So there you have it folks. I know that Georges doesn't have a very good
command of the English language and I have attempted to make it readable and
make it make a little more sense but I believe his heart is in the right
place and he believes this information. Other information I have read say a
meteor will hit Russia. We'll have to see what we shall see. You may ask me
if I believe it? I really don't believe that it will happen and I am staying
in California at the present time. If I get some scientific information or
if the birds and animals start to leave California then I will follow the
birds.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Dinosaurs.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun,  7 Feb 93 15:48:43 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 73

Subject: Dinosaurs.
  From time to time I get information about the fact that at the present there
are animals on Earth that resemble Dinosaurs. Some of this information is
not true, but I believe that we have a bit of truth in some of this
information that may lead us to some very interesting animals. So here we go
with some of the information;.....Serpents and dinosaurs that roamed the
Earth millions of years ago are still living today - in the darkest reaches
of the Amazon jungle!
  A scientific expedition that trekked into a region of the Amazon never
before seen by man has returned to civiization with films and photographs of
the monsters that thrived on Earth during the Mesozoic era.
  "It was the greatest experience of my life, one that I shall never forget,"
said Dr. Fritz Treichler, a Swiss zoologist and co-leader of the 17 month
expedition.
  "It was like stepping instantly into the beginnings of life on Earth. We saw
with our own eyes the creatures that ruled the Earth long before man.
 "All of the dinosaurs are there in the jungle today - tyrannosaurus,
brontosaurus, diplodocus, iguanodon, stegosaurus, triceratops.  The most
incredible creatures of the past living and breathing in the 20th century."
  Only the sketchest  bits of information were made public when the 25 man
expedition reported to government officials in the Amazon capital of Manaus.
  Treichler and co-leader Dr. Konrad Grubler said further details will come
after the films are studied and various specimens are analyzed.
  "This is a monumental discovery," Glubger said. "The interests of science
must be served before anything else. The full story will be made public only
at the proper time, not a minute before."
  Gruber refused to divulge the area that he has labeled "the land of the
dinasaurs," but he did reveal how the discovery came about.
  "For several years, there have been rumors that small creatures very similar
to dinosaurs had been seen in the particular area we visited," he said.
  "Not much credence was given the reports until someone came out with a
living specimen.
 "When our group reached the area where the speimen was found, we soon came
across others and indentified them as  young  dinosaurs of the Mesozoic era."
  Gruber said the expedition found the baby serpents in a small, uncharted
branch of the Amazon and the decision was made to follow the river in an
effort to find the parents of the young creatures.   "We followed the river
for more than three weeks before we came across the first dinosaur. I simply
could not believe my eyes.
  "Not only did we see all of the dinosaurs we are so familiar with through
earlier archaeological discoveries, we saw one that was unknown to us.
  "It was a serpent of enormous size with teeth like rows of daggers.  It
looked much like the drawings I have seen of Scotland's famous Loch Ness
Monster."
  Gruber said the bones of dead dinosaurs found in the jungle are identical to
fossils found in other parts of the world and positively identify the living
creatures as direct descendants of those that lived on Earth eons ago.
  "The bones we brought back are identical in every respoect to the fossils we
have," he said. "And we have the bones of both classes of dinosaurs - the
lizard-hipped Saurischia and the bird-hipped Ornithischia."
  Treichier said the expedition's color film and still photographs clearly
show the pre-historic beasts as they live on land and in the water. He said
one scientist lost three fingers of one hand when he was bitten by a
specimen that was only two feet long.
  "It was the only misadventure we had," he said.  "The scientist was holding
the creature so the camera could show its size in relation to man.
  "Suddenly it gave a flip of its head and snapped its jaws. Its razor-sharp
teeth took the fingers off as easily as a meat cleaver. We became more
cautions after that."
  Gruber said the expedition returned with specimens never before seen by
modern man, including unfossilized teeth, talons and toe-nails, skin and
air-tight canisters of their feces. "We also found dozens of dinosaur eggs,
and brought some back for study. And the films we made as they moved through
the jungle are spectacular. You simply cannot imagine how incredible those
creatures are.
  "When our full report is made public, the scientific world will stand in awe
of this fantastic discovery.
  "Imagine it if you can the dinosaurs we believed extinct for millions of
years are living today in the 20th century.
J.W. Well now I don't know about that. I'm a skeptic.
Source of Information: Some tabloid magazine the I lost the name of.
John Winston.

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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 14:21:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey) writes:
>  Danny:
>
>  The gulf breeze situation is still on going. In the past may people have
>  Said it was a hoax. I myself have gone down to Gulf Breeze to look into
>  this.  I met with Bruce macabee while I was down their it was a very
>  very interesting few days!  I talked with some of the people that have
>  seen things around the area and flying over the Bay its self. The witness
>  that I talked to was not a crack pot. He was a person that knew what he say
>  and understood how others may think it was not real.
>
>  I talked with Bruce for some time and he was sure that somthing was going
>  on in the area.  As to what it was he could not say he felt that what was
>  or is being seen is not anything of this planet.  He and I both agreed that
>  this area will be active for some time to come.

  So in other words you didn't see anything, yourself, and you have
  no actual evidence of anything, but you believe there's something
  going on because you talked with some enthusiastic people.

  I've talked with lots of enthusiastic people who claim to have
  talked with God; there's probably far more of them in the US
  than UFO-believers.  But somehow in the absence of physical
  evidence I find such conversations . . . uh . . . less than
  compelling.


---peter



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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Feb 93 13:55:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Monster Lovers: I feel a dinosaur story coming on. Don't tell
> anyone but I am one of the few people on earth who believe that there
> are a few dinosaurs still living in remote areas today.
> John Winston


What does he mean few?  Loads of people do.
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Herborth)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: InterZONE Design
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
X-Software: HERMES GUS 1.04 Rev. Sep  5 1992
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1993 22:03:10 EST
Lines: 20

In <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Monster Lovers: I feel a dinosaur story coming on. Don't tell
> anyone but I am one of the few people on earth who believe that there
> are a few dinosaurs still living in remote areas today.
> John Winston

There's one living here in the untamed wilds of South-central (Ontario,
that is).  It's name is "Byron", and it's something like a cat, but with
enough skin to cover at least two cats with fur.

Byron isn't as big as most dinosaurs are _thought_ to be (we all know those
skeletons were forgeries made out of plaster and LEGO), but he sure has
a lot of skin.

There are no known Bigfootf groups in this area.  Just brain-dead
WhiteTrash.
--
-------------------========================================-------------------
Chris Herborth
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology,alt.non.sequitur,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Monster Lovers.
Date: 8 Feb 1993 16:46:08 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] (David C. Williss) says:
>In a previous article, [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley) says:
>>In a previous article, [e-mail] (Howard Berkey) says:
>>>>  "What are you doing, Dave?"
>>>
>>>"Emasculating you for not opening the goddam pod bay door, Hal."
>>
>>Uh, but I thought HAL'S voice went _down_ a few octaves.  But there were those
>>telltale bubbles of blood and sperm floating around.  Oh wait, that was
>>Star Trek IV, not Space 1999.  (blush)
>
>VI was the one
>with dead klingons and klingong blood floating around without gravity.

But emacs has macros for gravity, live klingons, and in fact all the races
in Star Wars.  So there.


Mark

"GONG!"
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: North Pole City.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  8 Feb 93 08:01:53 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 51

Subject: North Pole City Under Ice Cap.
  In the past I have talked about a city at the South Pole called Rainbow City
and also an underground city near Cadiz underneath the small town of Cima,
Calif. I have a friend who is going to check the area around Bananza Springs
out pretty soon with a helicopter, if all goes well.  It is also been said
that there is a one mile diameter circle around Bonanza Springs but I have
never been able to see this in person or see it on a photo taken from a
survey plane map. It may not be there at all. I am now going to tell you
about yet another ancient city that is located at the North Pole (and no,
it's not the home of Santa) so stand by for the News........Excited
scientists  have discovered the ruins of an ancient city encased in ice near
the North Pole - a city  once inhabited by humans standing 12 feet tall!
  "This has got to be the most fascinating discovery of the 20th century,
simply because it was so unexpected and seems so completely unexplainable,"
flabbergasted archeologist Dr. Trygve Daaland said.
  Our best guess is that this city of giants - and the giants themselves -
have been buried beneath the polar ice cap for 30,000 years, maybe more.
  But who they were, where they came from and what force destroyed their city
remains a total mystery at this point.
  Dr. Daaland was one of  a team of Scandinavian scientists who discovered the
crumbling stone city - and the remains of its human inhabitants - while
exploring the bone-chilling North Atlantic on August 10, 1992.
  Researchers from Norway, Finland, Russia and the United States converged on
the site two weeks later and have been working round-the-clock to recover
artifacts from the 20-mile-long island of ice north of Greenland.
  "The whole project is supposed to be very hush-hush, but I can't see any
valid reason for keeping this our little secret," Dr. Daaland said.  "What
we're finding out there is so well-preserved by the ice, and so far removed
from anything ever seen before, that it seems almost certain to rewrite the
history of mankind. Something that important should be shared with the
world."
  The human remains being gingerly extracted from the ice show that residents
of the lost city bear a marked resemblance to a race of people who roamed
nothern Africa thousands of years ago.
  Except that these people are enormous - 400 pounds and 12 feet tall, some of
them.  We've never seen anything like that before.  Nobody's ever seen
anything like that before.
  The gigantic inhabitants of this prehistoric city lived in buildings made of
lime stone blocks, similar to the blocks the ancient Egyptians used to
construct the Great Pyramid of Gizeh.
  But they certainly didn't quarry that limestone from up there at the North
Pole. It's possible, perhaps, that they actually lived much farther south
and that the remains of their city were dislocated by some massive
continental drift. At this point, we just don't know.
  The only thing we do know is  that we've stumbled onto one of the great
mysteries of our time - and scientists are going to be busy trying to figure
this one out for generations to come.
Source of Information: WEEKLY WORLD NEWS, Oct. 27, 1992.
J.W. So there you have it folks, yet another city. When will it all end?
John Winston.

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From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: staff.tc.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 17:10:09 GMT
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey) writes:
>>  Danny:
>>
>>  The gulf breeze situation is still on going. In the past may people have
>>  Said it was a hoax. I myself have gone down to Gulf Breeze to look into
>>  this.  I met with Bruce macabee while I was down their it was a very
>>  very interesting few days!  I talked with some of the people that have
>>  seen things around the area and flying over the Bay its self. The witness
>>  that I talked to was not a crack pot. He was a person that knew what he say
>>  and understood how others may think it was not real.
>>
>>  I talked with Bruce for some time and he was sure that somthing was going
>>  on in the area.  As to what it was he could not say he felt that what was
>>  or is being seen is not anything of this planet.  He and I both agreed that
>>  this area will be active for some time to come.

There are too many layers of obfuscation in examining any of these UFO cases.
There are the UFO hunters, the UFO media, the UFO messengers, and the UFO
priests.  No one could possibly untangle this into any palatable form
because it is solely based on Talk and not Walk.  Rather, it seems to be
in the interest of everyone involved that the more obfuscation, the better.
How strange.

In the case of Gulf Breeze, 1) Ed Walter had a history of hoaxing people
with trick photography, 2) a neighbor admitted assisting Ed in his trick
photographic efforts, 3) a model UFO was found in Ed's house after he
moved, 4) Ed's main 'scientific' expertise came from Bruce Maccabee, paid
directly from Ed's publishing money before the book was even written.

I think its naive of anyone in this day and age to accept something as
true or real based on the authenticity of photographs, video or documents.
They are the EASIEST obstacles to overcome in the perpetration of any hoax.

<X>
--
   ***********************************************************************
   *          Michael D. Whitten  [e-mail]               *
   *        "Psst.  Hey, Guido.  It's all so clear to me now..."         *
   ***********************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Dinosaurs.
Date: 8 Feb 1993 18:15:35 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:
>Subject: Dinosaurs.
>  "It was like stepping instantly into the beginnings of life on Earth.

Eeewwww... gross!!!!

>one scientist lost three fingers of one hand when he was bitten by a
>specimen that was only two feet long.

Now I'm going to HAVE to call them on this one.  If the specimen (Latin:
speci = X-Ray specs + men = homo sapiens (Latin: homo = 2% A & D milk +
sapiens = tree sap o' saurs)) was only TWO feet long then how could it bite
off THREE fingers at once?  ANYONE who can do ELEMENTARY math and has A CAPS
LOCK and is POSTING from an adm-5 TERMINAL can see THE fallacy IN THIS.  Wotta
hoax.

>  "Suddenly it gave a flip of its head and snapped its jaws. Its razor-sharp
>teeth took the fingers off as easily as a meat cleaver.
>J.W. Well now I don't know about that. I'm a skeptic.

It's true!  I went through a few dozen tin cans and tomatoes before I was
convinced but now I'm a true believer!  And they throw in the dimetrodon too,
what a bargain!!

>Source of Information: Some tabloid magazine the I lost the name of.

Probably TV Guide, they listed the show on the FOX network.


Mark
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13928 alt.alien.visitors:13287 sci.skeptic:38351
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From: [e-mail] (M.D. O'Leary)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Feb 93 16:57:54 GMT
Expires: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 00:00:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK NE1 7RU
Lines: 45
Nntp-Posting-Host: tuda

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>This appeal to intuition is unfounded and leads you to an incorrect.
>The explanation of burning body fat was proposed for cases that had
>very similar characteristics:
>  -the victim was likely to have lost consciousness, on a rug or
>   chair that could catch fire and burn hot enough to start 'melting'
>   the body

yup. So there was this great, hot fire, and the body was damaged too. Amazing.

>  -the fire burned for many hours undiscovered, giving LOTS of time
>   to burn the body entirely

Hrmmm.

>  -in many cases there was EXTENSIVE damage to the room, indicating
>   a very hot and destructive fire.

The whole *point* of SHC is that the *body* burns and the rest of the place
(even clothes, shoes etc) don't! You are saying above that in an 'extensive'
house fire, the body got burned up too. Wow. Gosh. Amazing.

>In these conditions, the fat will indeed ignite and burn hot enough
>to destroy the whole body.

agreed. For proof, visit your local crematorium. Try not to upset the
relatives, though. Now, I'd be impressed if you came back and said "the coffin
was reduced to ashes, but the gas jets didnt even *singe* the body" - that is
the analogous case to SHC, *not* a body being burnt in a big fire, which is
what we'd (?) expect.

>I know of no evidence of SHC in living people.  You're going
>to have to document that extraordinary claim.

I do not have the 'ref' with me, but I have read an eyewitness account (or
'victim' account) of a man who felt a sharp pain in the leg, looked down and
saw a small jet of flame coming from his thigh. He, and passersby, experianced
some difficulty in putting this falme out...

>  Robert E. McGrath

The above said, I think the vents are explainable. ie SHC is within current
physics/medicine.

Who was the Dickens character to SHC'd? SOme old woman, wasnt it?
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13929 alt.alien.visitors:13288 alt.religion.kibology:6350
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Tesla
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>     <[e-mail]> <stone.728749838@cwis> <[e-mail]>
Date:  8 Feb 93 18:06:55 GMT
Lines: 16

[e-mail] (Rich 'mcmxciibo' Holmes) writes:

>In article <stone.728749838@cwis> [e-mail] (Travis Stone) writes:

>>Regarding good ol' Tesla:
>>
>>I've said it once before, and I'll say it here again: he was a genius
>>AND a fruitcake.

>He's a dessert topping!

    Which, unless you are carrying LOTS of water, is better than being
a *desert* topping.....

Duane  :-)

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13930 alt.alien.visitors:13289 alt.religion.kibology:6351
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: What is a Kibo?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: isaac.its.rpi.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Big Wedge
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 19:10:31 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> I don't understand him...

 That's okay, _he_ doesn't entirely understand him. That's what happens
when you watch too much "E! Entertainment Television."

|> but the name Kibo stands for Knowledge in B_______ out.

 Actually, I think it's "Kibology in, Bozocity out".
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| "And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
     \_|      To mold a new reality -- closer to the heart."
      ====  e-mail: [e-mail] or [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Peterson)
Subject: evidence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 18:15:36 GMT
Lines: 40

    The lack of physical evidence is frequently put forward
as proof that UFO's don't exist, or that there is no phenomenon
to study. Anecdotal evidence is not considered as valid proof.
Some say that if the gubment DID have something, they wouldn't
be able to keep it a secret. I think a little perspective is
needed here:
    1) no incontrovertible physical evidence has been found.
If so, someone has kept it almost totally secret.
    2) pilots are the most likely to see UFO's, since they spend
many hours in the air. There are criminal penalties for discussing
UFO sightings with the general public.
    3) many military people have come forward with anecdotal
evidence of UFO's : foo fighters, radar locks, scrambles, etc. They
can't talk about it without some fear of prosecution.
    4) anyone who tries to come out in the open with a story
is immediately discredited, called a "kook", etc. Even police officers
and other credible witnesses can lose their jobs.
    5) many sightings are massive in scale : Washington National
sightings in 1952 for example.
    6) our current science says that other planets must be extremely
common. Life should be abundant.
    7) our science currently cannot tell us how to travel to another
star. But look at us 200 years ago. Now look 200 years into the future.
Is it still going to be impossible? How about a robot ship?
    8) UFO's have been sighted for thousands of years.

    I think that some things are obvious:

    1) there is some phenomenon to study
    2) we don't know everything
    3) to jump to any conclusion is to stop learning
    4) there is no real reason to operate under the hypothesis
that aliens are visiting us to study
    5) it could just as well be angels, ourselves in the future,
or something even better
    6) perhaps it is a kind of collective unconcious fantasy

--
    Howdy Pardner! Let's chew the fat!
    Disclaimer : my thoughts are not my own. :-X
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13931 alt.alien.visitors:13291 sci.skeptic:38358
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: TV show about Atlantis.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  8 Feb 93 09:22:48 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear TV Watchers: Someone mentioned a movie (not a TV show that dealt
with a beach scene and aliens. The movie is called Cocoon and I liked
it very much. It wasn't meant to be the truth but it did make a few
people think about Atlantis.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13932 alt.alien.visitors:13292 alt.religion.kibology:6352
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Lady R.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  8 Feb 93 09:41:21 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear People Of Great Import. I have lost the E-mail address of a person
I call Lady R. She knows how to do Remote Viewing and people are asking
me for her E-mail address.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13933 alt.alien.visitors:13293
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: P. of Zion.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  8 Feb 93 09:51:32 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Smart People: I believe you will find that again Robert S. is
correct in his information about the P. of Zion. I just looked at
a copy of an old magazine put out by a person named Mr. West who
also tells what Hatonn has to say and low and behold what did appear
to my unbelieving eyes but some information about the P. of Zion. That
is one bit of infomation you had better not read.
John Winston  I'm also in search of the E-mail address of Lady R., the
person who can do Remote Viewing.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13934 alt.alien.visitors:13294 sci.skeptic:38359
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  8 Feb 93 09:53:55 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folks: While we're at it on the subject of TV shows, I'm In
Search Of the E-mail address of the lady I call Lady R. the person
who does Remote Viewing.
John Winston
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13935 alt.alien.visitors:13295 alt.religion.kibology:6353
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From: [e-mail] (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: Tesla
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: isaac.its.rpi.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: The Big Wedge
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 18:56:22 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Subject: Commander X.
|>    In the past I had been loaned a book called Underground Alien Bases and I
|> posted some information from it that would curl your hair. He now has
|> another book out that will darn your socks.

 I'm waiting for the book that will walk the dog, trim the hedges and wax the
car.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| "And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
     \_|      To mold a new reality -- closer to the heart."
      ====  e-mail: [e-mail] or [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (My name is...)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO programs on Satellite TV?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Feb 93 21:18:31 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 5

What happened to the UFO program on G6 ch17? Did they move to another
satellite?      I have heard them on Sunday night at 11:00pm east coast.

                           thanks,
                              Ken
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13936 alt.alien.visitors:13297
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From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 14:55:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 10

According to [e-mail] (Don Allen):
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>>Yes, it's said to be a forgery by the Czarist secret police. Certainly
>>it reads as if this were true. It tries to make people think 'the Jews
>>are your enemy, but the Aristocracy is your friend'.
>
>My *favorite* Bill Cooper story [...]

But, Don!  What do you think of the Protocols?  Perspiring minds want
to know!
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Feb 93 16:09:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 103


    [e-mail] (Danny Smith) writes:
    I remember the Gulf Breeze UFO sightings and the guy who had a
    video and numerous pictures of UFOs. What has become of that
    story? It is mentioned in a post as the Gulf Breeze fiasco.
    Was this guy revealed as a hoax? any details would be
    appreciated.

   Funny you should ask.  The latest (January '93) Mufon Journal has
an article by Art Hufford (a state section directory for Florida) that
talks a bit about Gary Watson's investigation (completed in May,
1991.)  To sum, the case is murkier than ever.

    * Ed Walter's case was severely damaged by Robert Menzer's
discovery (in March, 1990) in Ed's old house of a "model of the UFO",
supposedly made in part from the blueprints for the house.  However:

        - The plans are not for Ed's house, but for another
          that Ed designed, but was never constructed.  The
          Thomases, for whom the plans were drawn, decided
          instead to buy another, already-Walters-built house.
          Walters then discarded the old plans (which were
          custom-designed for the Thomases.)

        - The plans were dated September, 1989 -- over 8
          months *after* Ed moved out (in Dec. 1988) of
          the house the "model" was found in.  That is, unless
          Ed deliberately build and put the model in a house
          two years after his famous photographs were taken
          that he didn't live in and knew could be sold at any
          time, he could not have made the model.  (The
          Menzers bought the house in Oct. 1989, and moved in
          in Nov.)  Even if Ed were going to keep a UFO model
          constructed from the Sept. '89 plans, he'd have
          obviously kept them in his new house.

    * The major "anti-Ed" witness, Tommy Smith, is a bit curious.

        - Tommy also had a set of UFO photographs, which
          he claimed Ed had taken with his camera; and
          that Ed allowed him to keep both the photographs
          and the negatives so taken.  (These photos, the
          only ones taken on Instamatic 110 film, were
          developed at University Mall by Smith.  Ed told
          Mufon investigators in 1987 that Smith had taken the
          photos himself.  An aquaintance of Smith's says that
          Smith told him that Smith himself took the photos.)

        - At least some of Tommy's explainations for
          Ed's photographs and other things are incorrect,
          although he claimed they were true, or at
          least he claimed that Ed told him they (the
          hoaxing explainations) were true (he claims Ed
          told him all about the hoaxing.  Why Ed would
          kibosh his own hoax by telling a local teenager
          is a little unclear, but that's what Tommy says):

           + The method Tommy claims for the 'blue beam'
             photograph (peeling back the edge of the
             back of the film on the Polaroid camera)
             is impossible, according to analysts and
             the film's manufacturer.

           + Tommy's claim of how the circle of dead
             grass behind Ed's house (Ed jumping on an
             upsidedown trampoline) is insufficient to
             explain why the grass didn't grow back for
             18 months.

           + Tommy's claim of using a length of PVC
             pipe to hold up a videotaped UFO doesn't
             fit the actual video (the base is illuminated;
             a bit of pipe would show.)

           + Tommy claims alterately to know all about
             the famous "Road Shot", and very little about it,
             depending on how detailed the questioning
             of it is.

    * Jeff Sainio, a photoanalyst, has said (using Ed's original
photos) that the claimed double-exposure techniques for Ed's pictures
could not produce the photos.  (Another analyst, William Hzyer,
working without the originals, says that it is possible to fake 'em.)
Ed Walters has passed four separate polygraph tests (by three
different operators) about the genuineness of his UFO pictures.

... so, what does it all mean?  Beats me.  The Gulf Breeze photos (and
continuing sightings in the area) fit the old pattern in the media
(and amongst skeptics) - any mundane explaination at all, *any* -- is
seized upon, and the matter is dropped forever.  If the explaination
doesn't fit the facts, it doesn't really matter -- as long as it fits
what's reported, the matter can be shifted off the public's mind.
(The recent "war" between Stanton Friedman and Phil Klass over the
MJ-12 is similar -- Klass dismisses them, and gives a reason.  The
reason is shot down, so Klass dismisses them, with another reason.
That second reason is shot down, so Klass dismisses them, with yet
another reason... shot down, dismissed, etc.)

   The Gulf Breeze photos have been the source of a war of words
within ufology as well, of course.  Mufon tends toward an open-minded
inquiry; Cufos does not, tending more toward long-range sniping.

Charles
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Sean Eaton)
Subject: ARTICLE: Aurora tested over Shetlands
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 18:57:00 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 37

The Aurora plane was the subject of some discussion on aav a
while back.  I thought this small article from THE TIMES
today, Monday 8 February, 1993 might be of interest.

                     US TESTS SPY PLANE
                       OVER SHETLANDS

A secret wedge-shaped American spy plane that has been
"spotted" by crofters and oil field workers flying over
Shetland and the Hebrides may be one of a family of new
reconnaissance aircraft that is being tested by the US
(Michael Evans writes).
   The Aurora, reported to be capable of flying at eight
times the speed of sound at an altitude of 130,000 ft, was
first identified by Christopher Gibson, an oil rig engineer
and former member of the Royal Observer Corps.
   He reported that the plane was being refuelled in mid air
by tankers, believed to be based at the RAF station at
Machrihanish, Strathclyde.
   The Pentagon in Washington has denied knowledge of the
plane, but the Aurora is believed to be an advanced
technology demonstrator, not yet in service with the US Air
Force, which could replace the SR71 Blackbird, which was
retired in 1990.
   The authoritative magazine _International_Defence_Review_
will report later this month that the Americans have also
developed an unmanned hypersonic spy plane under a deep
black (the highest security classification) programme
codenamed "Senior".
   Both the unmanned version and the piloted Aurora are said
to have been developed by Lockheed.  The unmanned plane is
reported to fly at five times the speed of sound and is
capable of being launched from a large aircraft such as a C5
Galaxy or a B52 strategic bomber.

[EOB]
-Sean.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13937 alt.alien.visitors:13300 sci.skeptic:38375
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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Abductions.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Feb 93 18:58:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Bud Hopkins.
>  I recently read something in a tabloid magazine and lost the article but I
>did find an abbreviated version of the incident in another more established
>magazine so here is how the information went; ......UFO ABDUCTION. If the
>following story is true, this could be the biggest UFO case of the century.
>  At the 1992 MUFON  Conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico, Budd Hopkins
>disclosed that a woman, Linda Cortile (not her real name), was allegedly
>abducted from her 12th-floor apartment building in New York City.
>  Not only that, but her abduction was witnessed by several people.  One of
>those was supposedly Javier Perez de Cuellar, former Secretary General of
>the United Nations. Ostensibly, the abduction event was staged for this
>man's benefit.
>  In addition to de Cuellar, his two agents, Dan and Richard, also in the car,
>witnessed the alleged event, as did a woman driving across the Brooklyn
>Bridge.  Stay tuned to FATE for more information. This is proving to be an
>explosively controversaial case, and we will keep you informed.
>JW, So there you have part of the story.
>Source of Information: January 1993/FATE page 9.
>John Winston.

I agree with John on the issue of FATE magazine 100% Don"t
throw the baby out with the bath water. Granted the title does
sound rather of yellow journalism. The contents though have
always proven to be highly informative and nearly always easy
to validate or invalidate; as they regard hard news.

Len
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Thank You John Winston for those Valid Reports
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Feb 93 19:03:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Lines: 20

With regards to Lapis Lazuli, Commander X, and FATE magazine:
I wish to thank John Winston sincerely for taking the time and
energy and net connect costs to type and post these reports
for us.

I am 39 and have researched all of the above in their various
forms for the last 20 years. What John has posted on these
topics is invaluable! IMHO it is extremely valid and
Truthful....and if you all give them a try...you will find
that after 6 months, you will agree.

Thank you John!

Sincerely,
Len
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin J. Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: Any Info on 2/2 UFO sighting?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News)
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 21:23:00 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (jcj) writes:
>Interesting.  I saw a Reuters article that said an egg shaped orange
>light was chased by a cop near Oconomowoc (sp) Wisconsin.  This was
>after a call that there was something sighted near I-94, which is a
>major arterial between Chicago and Milwaukee and which I've driven
>on a few hundred times.  For such a busy interstate there should have
>been several tens to hundreds of witnesses depending on the time.

Recently in the Madison WI area there was a news story of some police chasing a
bright light, which turned out to be Venus. One person supposedly claimed to
have seen a domed object with yellow flashing lights. I can verify that Venus
was around at the time. :-)

--
Kevin Cherkauer
[e-mail]

Disclaimer: The above opinions are solely the responsibility of my owners.
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Government and aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Question..
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Robotics Engineering
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 93 20:55:09 GMT
Lines: 5

    Question... Since there are meta-operants around these days (I should know, I WAS one as a child), does the government hire them to be the First Contact team? If not, why not? Wouldn't it be prudent to find out as much as one can about a an unknown? Knowing the government and their paranoid ways, an ESP team is probably already established. Who knows, maybe one of them are reading our newsletter to pick up new recruits. Do they have tests to measure ESP strength and abilities?

                ^^^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Government Flying Saucers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Top Secret Hah!
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Robotics Engineering
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 93 21:09:37 GMT
Lines: 9

    Top Secret  Hah! The government has constructed at least two flying saucers and are storing them in the abandoned mine at the Nevada test site. Talk about a cover-up, the miners saw these thingamajobs and reported them. The government then bought up the mine and stored their precious little secrets in it. Where are they going to transport these little cuties when the test site closes and becomes open to UNLV and energy companies to research possibilities for a solar-energy plant? Don't ask me where I got






this information. Let's just say it is very VERY reliable.

                ^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE.


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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: evidence
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 21:44:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Lines: 68

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bill Peterson) writes:

>    1) no incontrovertible physical evidence has been found.
>If so, someone has kept it almost totally secret.

  Or there isn't any.

>    2) pilots are the most likely to see UFO's, since they spend
>many hours in the air. There are criminal penalties for discussing
>UFO sightings with the general public.

  CARP (Cite Appropriate References, Please)


>    3) many military people have come forward with anecdotal
>evidence of UFO's : foo fighters, radar locks, scrambles, etc. They
>can't talk about it without some fear of prosecution.

  So?  Other military secrets and denials have been broken,
  e.g., the Pentagon Papers, the "Big Muddy" tragedy, etc.
  And alien contact is VASTLY bigger than such relative
  trivia.


>    4) anyone who tries to come out in the open with a story
>is immediately discredited, called a "kook", etc. Even police officers
>and other credible witnesses can lose their jobs.

  So?  Lots of ideas in the past that were described as kooky
  (heliocentric solar system, germ theory of disease, heavier
  than air flight, etc, ET CETERA, were eventually vindicated
  because their proponents came up with credible evidence.  While
  other kooky ideas (e.g., the "orgone generator", pyramid razor
  sharpeners, etc), really turned out to BE kooky.


>    5) many sightings are massive in scale : Washington National
>sightings in 1952 for example.

  So?  Where's the evidence?


>    6) our current science says that other planets must be extremely
>common. Life should be abundant.

  Again, so what?


>    7) our science currently cannot tell us how to travel to another
>star. But look at us 200 years ago. Now look 200 years into the future.
>Is it still going to be impossible? How about a robot ship?

  Again, irrelevant.  This assumes its conclusion (that UFO's are
  from another planet).  First show us that UFO's EXIST as something
  other than mistaken identity of mundane phenomena, THEN we can
  discuss where they might be from.


>    8) UFO's have been sighted for thousands of years.

  So has/have <god|God>/gods/angels/devils/elves/ghosts, etc.  Lots
  of people believe lots of things but that doesn't form the basis
  of a convincing argument.


---peter


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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Government and aliens
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 21:48:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Keywords: Question..
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>    Question... Since there are meta-operants around these days (I should know,
>  I WAS one as a child),

  Oh, OK,  I'll bite . . . what's a "meta operant"?


---peter
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Date: 8 Feb 1993 15:27:24 -0600
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ub.d.umn.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>  I've talked with lots of enthusiastic people who claim to have
>  talked with God; there's probably far more of them in the US
>  than UFO-believers.  But somehow in the absence of physical
>  evidence I find such conversations . . . uh . . . less than
>  compelling.

Well then, following from statistics I heard once on CBS news, you think
that more that 50% of the people in the US talk to God.  (according to
the report, more than 50% of people in the US believe UFO's do exist).

>---peter

    Thanks
    Robert Fentiman

InterNet: [e-mail]
At: University of Minnesota, Duluth


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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date:  8 FEB 93 17:31:16
Lines: 28


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey) writes:
>>  Danny:
>>
>>  The gulf breeze situation is still on going.
>
>  So in other words you didn't see anything, yourself, and you have
>  no actual evidence of anything, but you believe there's something
>  going on because you talked with some enthusiastic people.
>
>  I've talked with lots of enthusiastic people who claim to have
>  talked with God; there's probably far more of them in the US
>  than UFO-believers.  But somehow in the absence of physical
>  evidence I find such conversations . . . uh . . . less than
>  compelling.

Yah, me too. I saw Boston Garden full of them one time. Part of the so-called
charismatic church movement is something called "receiving the Holy Spirit" or
"baptism with the Holy Spirit" or other words to that effect. Trying to pin
down the details of this experience was like pushing a rope. I came to believe
that there were no details to pin down, though I may well be wrong.

Many UFO incidents are alot like this. Some, like Roswell, reveal more and more
detail as folks dig deeper. I keep an eye on the latter, and generally dismiss
the former.

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13938 alt.alien.visitors:13309
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: North Pole City.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date:  8 FEB 93 17:46:29
Lines: 18


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Subject: North Pole City Under Ice Cap.
>Source of Information: WEEKLY WORLD NEWS, Oct. 27, 1992.
>John Winston.

John, you disappoint me. Still posting from tabloids. After we asked you not
to. After we told you they make the stories up, to sell papers. After we
informed you of the disclaimers they publish in every paper. After I posted
that I would have no other choice but to believe you a disinformation agent if
you continued to do this.

So you are a disinformation agent then?

John Winston, welcome to my kill file. I've never had one before, but I refuse
to be propagandized by you.

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel F Boyd)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: TV show about Atlantis.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 93 00:08:40 GMT
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Nntp-Posting-Host: lictor.acsu.buffalo.edu

Whooooa!

John is a film critic too!

Since he's also psychic, can he critique films before they're made?



--
Daniel F. Boyd -- [e-mail]

"Here, a piece of the True Cross.  And in this case, we have the skull
of John the Baptist at the age of twelve."
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO ZINES, ETC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Feb 93 15:35:09 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620
Lines: 8

Hi y'all,

Would it be possible for someone to send me a list of some UFO zines and the
like?

Thanks,

Steve
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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Books and Therapists for Abductees
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 93 00:48:58 GMT
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As the title suggests, this file lists books and therapists
who could be of some help to people who feel they have been
the subject of an alien abduction.....I make no judgements, I
am only relaying the information....len
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: SOURCES: Book list and Abduction counselers list
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Aug 91 03:39:15 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 313
Xref: lassie alt.conspiracy:5762

I got this list out of the back of a book I have just finished
reading, called "Encounters", by Edith Fiore, P.H.D., and
published by: Doubleday, 1989. ISBN #: 0-385-26236-1 . It's
an interesting book, in my opinion. What follows is _her_ book
list. I added "Confrontations" and "UFO Crash at Roswell" to
the list.

--+-------------------------------------------------------------
         Suggested Reading List
--+-------------------------------------------------------------

Andrews,George. "Extra-Terrestrials Among Us". St. Paul:
Llewelyn,1986

Berlitz, Charles and W. L. Moore. "The Roswell Incident"
New York: Grosset & Dunlap,1980

Druffel,Ann and D. Scott Rogo. "The Tujunga Canyon Contacts"
Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, 1980

Editors. "The UFO Phenomenon" . Alexandria, Va. : Time-Life
Books,1987

Emenegger, Robert. "UFO's: Past, Present & Future" New York:
Ballantine, 1986

Flammonde, Paris. "UFO Exist!" New York: Putnam, 1976

Fowler, Raymond E. "The Andreasson Affair" Englewood Cliffs, N.J.:
Prentice-Hall,1979

Fowler, Raymond E. "Casebook of a UFO Investigator". Englewood Cliffs,
N.J. : Prentice-Hall, 1982

Fry,Daniel. "The White Sands Incident". Louisville, Ky. : Best Books,
1966

Fuller,John. "Aliens in the Sky". New York: Medallion/Berkley, 1969

Fuller,John. "The Interrupted Journey" . New York: Berkley, 1966

Good,Timothy. "Above Top Secret". New York: Morrow, 1988

Hopkins,Bud. "Intruders". New York: Random House, 1987

Hopkins,Bud. "Missing Time". New York: Richard Marek, 1981

Jung, Carl G. "Flying Saucers: A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Sky".
New York: Signet Books, 1969

Keyhoe, Donald E. "The Flying Saucers Are Real!". New York: Fawcett
Publications, 1950

Kinder,Gary. "Light Years". New York: The Atlantic Monthly Press, 1987

Larsen, S. J. "Close Encounters: A Factual Report on UFO's" .
Milwaukee: Raintree,, 1978

Lorenzen,J., and C. E. Lorenzen. "Abducted!" New York: Berkley, 1977

Montgomery, Ruth. "Aliens Among Us". New York: Putnam, 1985

Puharich,Andrija. "URI: A Journal of The Mystery of Uri Geller".
Garden City, N.Y. : Anchor/Doubleday, 1974

Randle, Kevin D. and Donald R. Schmitt. "UFO Crash At Roswell". Avon
Books, New York. 1991


Rimmer, John. "The Evidence for Alien Abductions". Northamptonshire:
Aquarian Press, 1984

Rogo,D. Scott,ed. "Alien Abductions". New York: New American Library,
1980

Rutledge,H. D. "Project Identification: The First Scientific Field
Study on UFO Phenomenon". Englewood Cliffs, NJ.: Prentice-Hall, 1981

Sachs,Margaret. "The UFO Encylopedia". New York: Perigee/Putnam, 1980

Sagan,Carl. "Cosmos". New York: Ballantine, 1985

Sprinkle, R. Leo. "Hypnotic and Psychic Implications in the
Investigation of UFO Reports". In "Encounters with UFO Occupants",
edited by C. E. Lorenzen and J. Lorenzen, 256-329. New York:
Berkley,1976

Steiger,Brad. "The UFO Abductors". New York: Berkley, 1988

Steiger,Brad and Francis Steiger. "The Fellowship" New York:
Dolphin/Doubleday, 1988.

Steiger,Brad. "The Star People". New York: Berkley, 1981

Strieber,Whitley. "Communion" . New York: Morrow, 1987

Strieber,Whitley. "Transformation: The Breakthrough". New York:
Morrow, 1988

Vallee,Jacques. "Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact"
Chicago: Contemporary Books, 1988

Vallee,Jacques. "The Messengers of Deception". Berkeley,Calif:
And/Or Press, 1979

Vallee,Jacques. "UFO Enigma: Challenge to Science". New York:
Ballantine, 1966

Vallee,Jacques. "Confrontations: A Scientist's Search for Alien
Contact". New York: Ballantine Books, 1990

Von Daniken, Erich. "Chariots of the Gods?". New York: Berkley, 1984

Von Daniken, Erich. "Gods From Outer Space". New York: Bantam, 1972

Walton,T. "The Walton Affair". New York: Berkley, 1978

Wilson, Clifford. "The Alien Agenda". New York: Signet/New American
Library, 1988

--+------------------------------------------------------------------

Since Dr. Edith Fiore works with abductees, the following is her
list of Hypnotherapists working with Abductees/Contactees .

--+------------------------------------------------------------------

Aphrodite Clamar, Ph.D.             Sharon Moss, Ph.D.
30 E 60th St., Suite 1107           2947 Eastmoreland
New York, NY 10022                  Oregon,OH 43616
[phone]                      [phone]

Beverly J. Carter                   June Parnell, Ph.D.
4491 South Yates                    2219 Rainbow Ave.
Denver, CO 80236                    Laramie,WY 82070
[phone]                      [phone]

Ann Druffel                         June Steiner
257 Sycamore Glen                   987 University Ave., Suite 6
Pasadena, CA 91105                  Los Gatos,CA 95030
[phone]                      [phone]

Stephen Field, Ed.D.                Jo Stone, MFCC
800 Oak Grove, Suite 207            P.O. Box 2828
Menlo Park, CA 94025                Los Angeles, CA 90078
(415) 325-46788

Edith Fiore, Ph.D.                  Richard Sigismund
20688 Fourth St.                    1557 9th St.
Saratoga,CA 95070                   Boulder, CO 80302
[phone]                      [phone]

Josie Hadley                        Thomas J. Zinser, Ed.D.
2443 Ash St., Suite D               2041 Raybrook SE
Palo Alto, CA 94306                 Grand Rapids, MI 49506
[phone]                      [phone]


Richard Haines, Ph.D.               Tisha Hallet
P.O. Box 880                        450 San Antonio Rd.
Los Altos,CA 94023-0880             Suite 27
                                    Palo Alto, CA 94306
                                    [phone]

James Harder, Ph.D.                 Barbara Levy, Ph.D
2800 Hilgard St.                    317 Eureka St.
Berkeley,CA 94709                   San Francisco, CA 94114
[phone]                      [phone]
                                    [phone]

Linda Marie Martin                  Mary Ellen Trahan, Ph.D.
152 Olive Springs Rd.               205 Tanner St.
Soquel,CA 95073                     Carrollton,GA 30117
[phone]                      [phone]

Jeffrey Mishlove, Ph.D.             Raymond Moody, M.D.
48 St. Francis La.                  205 Tanner St.
San Rafael, CA 94901                Carrollton,GA 30117
[phone]                      [phone]


Sue Street, Ph.D.                   Patricia Shaw, Ph.D.
University of South Florida         225 S. Meramec Ave.,
St. Petersburg Campus               Suite 506
140th 7th Ave., South               St. Louis, MO 63105
St. Petersburg, FL 33701            [phone]
[phone]

Keith Thompson                      Norma Triggs
P.O. Box 5055                       10 Willow Creek
Mill Valley,CA 94942                Richardson,TX 75080
[phone]

Jean Mundy, Ph.D.                   Alice Rose, Ph.D.
33 Windward                         4651 Roswell Rd. Suite
East Hampton, NY 11937              I-8013
[phone]                      Atlanta,GA 30342
and 105 West 13th St.               [phone]
New York, NY 10011
[phone]

--+------------------------------------------------------------------
                       UFO Publications
--+------------------------------------------------------------------

The MUFON Journal
103 Oldtowne Rd.
Seguin,TX 78155

Walter Andrus Jr., is the director of MUFON. The journal
contains articles about international information and
research. [ Don's note: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED ]

--
Flying Saucer Review (FSR)
P.O. Box 12
Snodland
Kent ME6 5JZ
England

Edited by Gordon Creighton, FSR is published quarterly. The
journal features photographs and articles by an international
network of UFO researchers.

--
UFO Magazine
1800 S. Robertson Blvd.
Los Angeles,CA 90035

This newsletter gives information about UFO news and related
items of interest. [ Don's note: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED ]

--
Quest: The Journal of UFO Investigation
106 Lady Ann Rd.
Soothill, Batley
England

This magazine contains articles on the latest worldwide
UFO research regarding sightings and government reports.

--
Fate Magazine
3510 Western Ave.
Highland Park, IL 60035
[phone]

This magazine often has articles about UFO's, personal accounts
of both sightings and abductions, as well as summaries of the
latest theories and information.
--
The Star Beacon
P.O. Box 174
Delta,CO 81416

Edited by Ann Ulrich, this newsletter presents information
about UFO abductees and contactees and related topics.
--
Contactee: Research of UFO's by Direct Observation
P.O. Box 12
New Milford, NJ 07646

Published quarterly by Ellen Crystall, this newsletter
provides information about UFO abductions, contacts and
related topics.
--
White Star
P.O. Box 307
Joshua,CA 92252-0307

This newsletter provides channelled information about Earth
changes and prophecies about UFO/ET encounters.
--
Fortean Research Center
P. O. Box 94627
Lincoln,NE 68509

This group investigates UFO reports and other metaphysical
miracles.
--
Institute for UFO Contactee Studies
1425 Steele St.
Laramie, WY 82070

This organization counsels people who feel like they've had
a close encounter. It sponsors an annual contactee conference
each summer.

--
The New York Center for UFO Research (NYCUFOR)
13 W. Houston St., Suite 1
New York,NY 10012
[phone]

Michael Luckman, the director, sees this organization as a vehicle
for disseminating information about UFO's and extraterrestrials.
Conferences, lectures, media presentations are the main emphasis.
However, there is a referral service for those seeking help with
problems arising from their abductions/contacts.

-----EOF-------------------------------------------------------------

Don

--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"




--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Psychiatric Evaluations of Abductees by RIMA E. LAIBOW, M.D
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 93 00:54:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
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This file is over 2400 line long...I suggest downloading prior
to reading.

Len

================================================================
What follows is a report given on the Psychiatry and evaluation of
UFO abducted victims by RIMA E. LAIBOW, M.D. This report is not
considered "light" reading.

As usual, my *disclaimer* will be to read and make up your own mind :-)

------ Begin Included Text --------------------------------------------

                             RIMA E. LAIBOW, M.D.
                          Child and Adult Psychiatry

                                             Cerridwen
                                     13 Summit Terrace
                                Dobbs' Ferry, NY 10522
                                         [phone]

     CLINICAL DISCREPANCIES BETWEEN EXPECTED AND OBSERVED DATA IN PATIENTS
             REPORTING UFO ABDUCTIONS: IMPLICATIONS FOR TREATMENT

  ABSTRACT:  IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT THIS PAPER MAKES NO ATTEMPT TO ASSIGN OR
WITHHOLD EXTERNAL VALIDITY RELATIVE TO UFO ABDUCTION SCENARIOS.

        Patients who believe themselves to be UFO abductees are a
heterogeneous group widely dispersed along demographic and cultural lines.
Careful examination of these patients and their abduction reports presents
four areas of significant discrepancy between expected and observed data.

        Implications for the treatment of patients presenting UFO abduction
scenarios are discussed.

        INTRODUCTION

        If a patient were to confide to a therapist that he had been abducted
by aliens who took him aboard a UFO and performed a series of medical
procedures and examinations on him it is not likely that the patient would
find either a receptive ear or a respectful and non-judgemental response from
the therapist.  The material presented would lie so far outside the confines
of our personal and cultural belief system that it would seem intolerably
anomalous to most of us.  We would probably dismiss or repudiate it using a
few comfortable and familiar assumptions which hold so much obvious wisdom
that they do not require specific examination.

        When events which are too anomalous to allow their incorporation
into our world schema are presented to us, we are likely to dismiss them
by using assumptions based in out currently operative world view.  This
effectively precludes the open evaluation of the anomaly.  Hence, the
"expressible" response of most clinical and lay individuals upon hearing a UFO
abduction account would be an immediate dismissal of even the possibility that
such an episode might occur.  Close upon the heels of that determination the
rapid and complete pathologization of the person offering such an account
would follow.  Dream states, suggestibility, poor reality testing, outright
dissembling or frank psychosis are customarily offered and accepted as evident
and reasonable organizing models by which the production of this material may
be understood. These are typical maneuvers by which the presentation of
information which challenges schematic assumptions is dismissed or screened
out before the assumptions can be adequately tested for predictive reliability
and accuracy.  Such testing is highly desirable, however, because it offers
us the opportunity to apply the scientific method to our current level of
theorital sophistication and thereby refine our understanding of reality
further still. Of course, this process is severely impeded when the new data
is excluded from consideration strictly because it is too anomalous for
assessment.

        Westrum has offered a model by which events become "hidden" and
therefore remain anomalous to the perception of society in a circular
process: the hidden event is disbelieved and its disbelief helps to keep it
hidden.  Citing the lengthy period during which battered children and their
battering parents remained hidden, Westrum states:

                "An event is hidden if its occurrence is so implausible
                that those who observe it hesitate to report it because
                they do not expect to be believed.  The implausibility
                may cause the observer to doubt his own perceptions,
                leading to the event's denial or mis identification.
                Should the observer nonetheless make a report, he/she
                can expect to be treated with incredulity or even
                ridicule.  Since the existence of a hidden event is
                contrary to what science, society, and perhaps even
                the observer believes, the event remains hidden because
                of strong social forces which interfere with
                reporting.  The actual degree of underreporting is
                sometimes difficult to believe, a skepticism which
                itself acts as a deterrent to taking seriously
                those reports which do surface." (1)

        But for the clinician who spends a moment before reaching these
"obvious" and "intuitive" conclusions, several fascinating and potentially
productive questions present themselves.  If we refrain for a short period
from dismissing this material out-of-hand, we find that there are at least
four areas of puzzling and important discrepancy between our intuitive sense
of order and the data presented by the patient.  These discrepancies force us
to re-examine our assumptions in light of a demonstrated failure of the theory
to account for the observed phenomena.  This process, while taxing and
challenging, is nonetheless, the way we systemize our understanding of human
health and pathology.  Noting the previously un-noted and using it to refine
our conceptual framework leads to better prediction and therefore to better
treatment.

        It is not the purpose of this paper to ascribe relative reality to the
experience of abduction reported by some patients. Rather, precisely because
it lies outside the realm of clinical expertise to assess with certainty
whether these events actually occurred or if they are mere fantasy, it is
mandatory for the clinician to examine the impact of these experiences,
whatever their source, upon the patient. This must be done in a clear sighted
and open-minded fashion so that the impact of the experiences may be dealt
with rather than made into hidden events.

        AREAS OF DISCREPANCY

        1. ABSENCE OF MAJOR PSYCHOPATHOLOGY:    It is intuitively
seductive (and perhaps comfortable) for us to assume that psychotic-level
functioning will necessarily be present in a person claiming to be a UFO
abductee.  If this level of distortion and delusion is present, a patient
would be expected to demonstrate some other evidence of reality distortion.
Pathology of this magnitude would not be predicted to be present in a well
integrated, mature and non-psychotic individual.  Instead, we would expect
clinical and psychometric tools to reveal serious problems in numerous areas
both inter- and interpersonally.  It would be highly surprising if otherwise
well-functioning persons were to demonstrate a single area of floridly
psychotic distortion.  Further, if this single idea fix were totally
circumscribed, non-invasive and discrete, that in itself would be highly
anomalous.  Well-developed, fixed delusional states with numerous
elaborated and sequential components are not seen in otherwise healthy
individuals.  Prominent evidence of deep dysfunction would be expected to
pervade many areas of the patient's life.  One would predict that if the
abduction experience were the product of delusional or other psychotic states,
it would be possible to detect such evidence through the clinical and
psychometric tools available to us.

        This points to the first important discrepancy:  individuals
claiming alien abduction frequently show no evidence of past or present
psychosis, delusional thinking, reality-testing deficits, hallucinations or
other significant psychopathology despite extensive clinical evaluation.
Instead, there is a conspicuous absence of psychopathology of the magnitude
necessary to account for the production of floridly delusional and presumably
psychotic material.(2)

        In order to test this startling and anomalous information, a group of
subjects who believe they have been abducted by aliens (9, 5 male, 4 female)
were asked to participate in a psychometric evaluation. An experienced
clinical psychologist carried out an investigation using projection tests
(Rorschach, TAT, Draw a Person and the MMPI) and the Wechler Adult
Intelligence Scale.  The examining clinician was told "the subjects were being
evaluated to determine similarities and differences in personality structure,
as well as psychological strengths and weaknesses".  All of the subjects
actively refrained from sharing UFO-related experiences with the examiner and
she was unaware of this theme in their lives.

        The investigator found that commonalties were not strongly present and
that:
                "while the subjects are quite heterogeneous in their
                personality styles, there is a modicum of homogeneity
                in several respects: (1) relatively high intelligence
                with concomitant richness of inner life; (2) relative
                weakness in the sense of identity, especially sexual
                identity; (3) concomitant vulnerability in the inter-
                personal realm; (4) a certain orientation towards
                alertness which is manifest alternately in a certain
                perceptual sophistication and awareness or in inter-
                personal hyper-vigilance and caution.... Perhaps the
                most obvious and prominent impression left by the
                nine subjects is the range of personality styles
                the present.... There is little to unite them as a
                group from the standpoint of the overt manifestations
                of their personalities.... They [are] very distinctive
                unusual and interesting subjects. [But] "Along with
                above average intelligence, richness in mental life,
                and indications of narcissistic identity disturbance,
                the nine subjects also share some degree of impair-
                ment in personal relationships.  For [some] subjects,
                problems in intimacy are manifest more in great
                sensitivity to injury and loss than in lack of
                intimacy and relatedness.  [Ad] "...The last salient
                dimension of impairment in the interpersonal realm
                relates to a certain mildly paranoid and disturbing
                streak in many of the subjects, which renders them
                very wary and cautious about involving themselves
                with others.  It is significant that all but one of
                the subjects had modest elevations on the MMPI paranoia
                scale relative to their other scores.  Such modest
                elevations mean that we are not dealing with blatant
                paranoid symptomology but rather over-sensitivity,
                defensiveness and fear of criticism and susceptibility
                to feeling pressured.  To summarize, while this is a
                heterogeneous group in terms of overt personality style,
                it can be said that most of its members share being
                rather unusual and very interesting.  They also share
                brighter than average intelligence and a certain rich-
                ness of inner life that can operate favorably in terms
                of creativity or disadvantageously to the extent that
                it can be overwhelming.  Shared underlying emotional
                factors include a degree of identity disturbance, some
                deficits in the interpersonal sphere, and generally
                mild paranoia phenomena (hypersensitivity, wariness,
                etc.)" (3)

        Her findings demonstrate a uniform lack of the significant
psychopathology which would be necessary to account for these experiences if
abduction experiences do represent the psychotic or delusional states
predicted by current theory.

        When the examiner was informed of the true reason for the selection of
the subjects for this evaluation (i.e., their shared belief that they had been
exposed to alien abductions), she wrote an addendum to the original report re-
examining the findings of the testing in the light of the new data.  In it she
states:
                "The first and most critical question is whether our
                subjects' reported experiences could be accounted
                for strictly on the basis of psychopathy, i.e., mental
                disorder.  The answer is a firm no.  In broad terms,
                if the reported abductions were confabulated fantasy
                productions, based on what we know about psychological
                disorders, they could only have come from pathological
                liars, paranoid schizophrenics, and severely disturbed
                and extraordinarily rare hysteroid characters subject
                to fugue states and/or multiple personality shifts...
                It is important to note that not one of the subjects,
                based on test data, falls into any of these categories.
                Therefore, while testing can do nothing to prove the
                veracity of the UFO abduction reports, one can conclude
                that the test findings are not inconsistent with the
                possibility that reported UFO abductions have, in fact,
                occurred.  In other words, there is no apparent
                psychological explanation for their reports." (4)

        2. CONCORDANCE OF REPORTED DATA:        The second point of
intriguing discrepancy follows from this surprising absence of evidence
of a common thread of severe and reality-distorting psychopathology to
account for the patient's bizarre assertions.  They claim that they have
been abducted, sometimes repeatedly over nearly the whole course of their
lives, by aliens who have communicated with them and carried out procedures
much like medical examinations.  Persons reporting these experiences are seen
to be psycho-dynamically varied.  They are also demographically varied.
Reports of this basic scenario, numbering in the hundreds, have now been
recorded.  Even though the reporters range from individuals as diverse as a
mestizo Brazilian farmer(5),an American corporate lawyer (6), and a Mid-
Western minister(7), there is a perplexing and intriguing concordance of
features in these reports.  Certain details of the scenarios repeat themselves
with disturbing regularity no matter what the educational, national, social,
experiential or other demographic characteristics of the reporter.  In the
production of dreams, reveries, poetry, fantasies and psychotic states, while
the general themes of concern may be identified easily between individuals,
the specific symbolization, concretion, abstraction and representation of
those themes is relatively indiosyncratic for each individual.  This of course
necessitates careful empathic and attentive listening on the clinician's part
to gather both the general flavor and specific meaning of the elements of the
fantasy state.  This careful listening often means that a personal symbolic
representational system can be unraveled and its contents can be rendered less
mysterious to the patient.  In the abduction scenarios however, both specific
details and themes repeat themselves with surprising regularity:  In general,
the appearance and modus operandi of the aliens, their effect and procedures,
their tools and interests, their crafts and physical features all tally from
report to report with a high rate of concordance. (8,9,10)  This intriguing
fact seems impervious to the socio-economic, educational, national, or
cultural background of the abductee.  Similarly, whether the individual has
had previous contact with the literature of abduction seems to make little
difference in this vein since the reports of individuals who can be shown to
have had no exposure to abduction literature also contains these common
features.  Skilled practitioners and investigators report in these cases that
they are convinced that each of these subjects was being wholly truthful in
his/her report.

        The concordance of both content and event in these reports makes
them unlike any other fantasy-generated material with which I am familiar.
Indeed, investigators like Hopkins and others claim they have intentionally
withheld dissemination of certain important, frequently reported aspects of
the abduction scenarios in order to provide a "check" on the material being
presented to them by individuals who may have had access to this literature
since abductees may have been influenced at either the conscious or the
unconscious level by it.  In these cases as well, the features which have
previously been published as well as those withheld are both produced by the
abductee (11).  In instances in which the patient has read some of the
abductee literature, this previously withheld material may be offered to the
investigator with a sense of personal invalidation, apology and embarrassment.
He often expresses concern that this information is less likely to be
believed than the other material with which he is already familiar. (12)

        Jung and others have written widely about the use of archetypes
and the collective awareness of themes and images which are asserted to
present themselves in a world-wide and multi-personal way.  The amount of
individual variation and creative latitude demonstrated within the closed
system of archetypes and collected creativity is vast.  Those who pose such
universals detect their presence in the complex and highly idiosyncratic
presentations and guises which they are given by the unconscious mind of the
patient and the artist.  This disguise is idiosyncratic, they hold, precisely
because a set of available images is being used to work and rework the
personal realities of the individual against the background of the collective.
But the abductee does not seem to be involved in the reworking of personal
mythologies against the canvas of the race's mythology.  The details and
contents of the scenarios seem, upon extensive investigation, to bear little
thematic relevance to the issues inherent in the life of the abductee.
Intensive follow up investigation frequently yields no thematic, archetypical,
primary process symbolic meaning to the shape or activities of the abductors
and the scenario of the abduction itself. Instead, therapeutic work in these
cases centers around the issues inherent in the powerlessness and
vulnerability of the individual even is this were not a prominent theme in his
life before the putative abduction.  In other words, the customary richness of
association and creativity found in the examination of dreams and other
fantasy material is lacking with regard to the scenario and presentation of
the aliens who abduct and manipulate the patient in the abduction story.

        If the abduction material is indeed archetypal or fantasy generated in
nature, this is a new class of archetypes.  These archetypes demand rather
exact representation and mythic presentation since the activities and behavior
of the aliens is rather invariant within a narrow latitude regardless of the
other dream and fantasy themes of the patient.

        3. ABDUCTION SCENARIOS AND HYPNOSIS.    Members of both the lay and
professional communities frequently assume that material referring to UFO
abduction scenarios is retrieved under hypnosis.  Since it is generally
believed that people under hypnosis are open to the implantation of
suggestions through the overt or covert influence of the hypnotist it is
concluded that this material reproduces the hypnotists' expectations or
interests.  It is further concluded that since the hypnotist "put it there"
the abduction could not be accounted for as material which emerges solely from
the patient's end of dyad.

Thus, the abduction scenarios are commonly dismissed as merely representing
the production of desired material by compliant subjects. The abductees strong
sense of personal conviction that this really happened to him during the
session itself and upon recall of the session is similarly dismissed as an
artifact of the process by which the fantasies were generated.

        Several compelling factors mitigate against the facile dismissal of
data in this way.  Firstly, about 20% of these highly concordant abduction
scenarios are available spontaneously at the level of conscious awareness
prior to hypnosis.  (13,14)  These accounts may be enhanced or subjected to
further elaboration through the use of hypnosis or other recall enhancement
techniques, but in a significant number of people producing abduction
scenarios the recall is initially produced without recourse to such
techniques.  If their stories were substantially different from the concordant
abduction scenarios produced under regressive hypnosis, a different phenomenon
would be taking place.

       However, given the perplexing clinical presentation of similar stories
from dissimilar people who are uninformed about one another's experience, this
presents another highly interesting area of discrepancy.

        Hopkins has classified patterns of abduction recall into five
categories:

        Type 1.  patients consciously recall parts of the full abduction
scenario without hypnotic or other techniques designed to aid recall. The
emergence of this material may be delayed.

        Type 2.  patients recall the UFO sighting, surrounding circumstances
and/or aliens, but do not recall the abduction itself. Only a perceived gap in
time indicates any anomalous occurrence.

        Type 3.  patients recall a UFO and/or hominids but nothing else.
There is no sense of time lapse or dislocation.

        Type 4.  patients recall only a time lapse or dislocation.  No UFO
abduction scenario is recalled without the use of specific retrieval
techniques.

        Type 5.  patients recall noting relating to UFO or abduction
scenarios.  Instead they experience discrepant emotions ranging from uneasy
suspicions that "something happened to me" to intense, ego-dystonic fears of
specific locations, conditions or actions.  They may also exhibit unexplained
physical wounds and/or recurring dreams of abduction scenario content which
are not fixed in their experience as to place and time. (15)

        Examination of the transcripts of hypnotic sessions which yield
abduction material reveals that although subjects are sufficiently
suggestible to enter the trance state as directed by the therapist, they
resist having material "injected" into their account.  They customarily
refuse to be "lead" or distracted by the therapist's attempts to change
either the focus or content of their report.  The subject characteristically
insists upon correcting errors or distortions suggested or implied by the
hypnotist during the session.  Hence it is difficult to account for the
similarities and concordances of these scenarios through the mechanism of
suggestibility when these subjects so steadfastly refuse to be lead by
hypnotists.

        In fact, it is even more striking that while these patients feel the
material which they are producing both in and out of hypnosis as
experientially "real", nonetheless they frequently seek to discount or
explain away this bizarre and frightening material.  This remains true even
though sharing it regularly results in a significant remission of anxiety-
related symptoms and discomfort.  These abduction scenarios are so ego-alien
that they have frequently not shared the material with anyone at all or with
only a highly select group of trusted intimates. In the vast preponderance of
cases patients are reluctant to allow themselves to be publicly identified as
having had these experiences since the perceive that the abduction scenario is
so highly anomalous that they expect to experience ridicule and repudiation if
they become associated with it publicly.  It therefore functions like a guilty
secret in the way that rape has (and, unfortunately still does in some cases).

        After the material is produced and explored, these subjects often
experience a marked degree of relief.  This is true with reference both to
previously identified symptomatic behaviors and other anxiety manifestations
not noted on initial assessment.  These other symptoms may remit after
enhanced recall of the scenario and its details takes place.  It is
interesting to note that while the scenarios may contain a good deal of highly
traumatic material specifically related to reproductive functioning, these
episodes are nearly uniformly free of subjective erotic charge when either the
manifest or latent contents are examined.

        4.  POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER (PTSD) IN THE ABSENCE OF
EXTERNAL TRAUMA:        PTSD was first described in the content of battle
fatigue (16).  Although it may present in a wide variety of clinical guises
(17) PTSD is currently understood as a disorder which occurs in the context of
intolerable externally induced trauma which floods the victim with anxiety
and/or depression when his overwhelmed and paralyzed ego defenses prove
inadequate to the task of organizing unbearably stressful events.  In the
service of the patient's urgent attempt to still the tides of disorganizing
anxiety, fear or guilt<18> which accompany the emergence of cognitive, sensory
or emotional recall of these traumatic events, the trauma itself may be
either partly or completely unavailable to conscious recall. <19>...Both
physical and psychological responses to the trauma are profound and pervasive.
PTSD follows overwhelming real-life trauma and is not known to present as a
sequel to internally generated fantasy states.<20>

        This fourth area of discrepancy between predicted and observed data is
perhaps the most striking and challenging. Patients who produce alien
abduction material in the absence of psycopathology severe enough to account
for it often show the clinical picture of PTSD. This is remarkable when one
considers that it is possible that no traumatic event occured except that
rooted only in fantasy.  These trauma are, in large measure, split off, denied
and repressed as they are in other occurrences of PTSD.

        As discussed above, these scenarios frequently appear in individuals
who are otherwise free of any indication of significant emotional and
psychological instability or pre-existing severe psycopathology. On careful
clinical assessment, these memories do not appear to fill the intrapsychic
niches usually occupied by psychotic or psycho-neurotic formulations. The
abduction scenarios do not encapsulate or ward off unacceptable impulses, they
do not define <or defend against> split off affects, they are not used either
to stabilize or to divert current or archaic patterns of behavior nor do they
provide secondary gain or manipulative control for the individual.

        Instead, this material, experienced by the patient as unwelcome and
totally ego-dystonic, seems quite consistently to be woven into the fabric of
the patient's internal life only in terms of his reactive response to the
stress inherent in these experiences and the contents of the repressed
material related to the stressful memories.  But the extent of this secondary
response can be extensive.  It should be noted that PTSD has not previously
been thought to occur following trauma which has been generated solely by
internally states.  If abduction scenarios are in fact fantasies, then our
understanding of PTSD need to be suitably broadened to account for this
heretofore unexpected correlation.

        In addition, there are significant clinical implications to the
finding of abduction scenario material in a patient who shows PTSD but is
otherwise free of significant psychopathology.  Since abduction scenario
material presents several crucial areas of anomaly and discrepancy between
what is known and that which is observed.  It is very important for the
therapist to refrain from the comfortable (for the therapist, at least)
description of psychotic functioning to the patient who produces this material
until such disturbance is, in fact, demonstrated and corroborated by the
presence of other signs beside the UFO-related material.  It is imperative for
the therapist to adopt a non-judgemental stance.  He can attend to the
distress of the patient without attempting to confirm or deny possibilities
which are outside the specific area of his expertise.  The clinician should
adopt as his therapeutic priority the alleviation of the PTSD symptomology
through the use of appropriate and acceptable methods specific to the
treatment of PTSD.  In addition, the therapist must remember that while he may
have strong convictions pro or con the abduction actually having occurred, it
is not within either his capability or expertise to make such a judgement with
total certainty.  Furthermore, as the clinical psychologist who evaluated the
nine abductees pointed out in her addendum, the sophistication of the
psychotherapies has not advanced to the point at which this determination can
be made on the basis of currently available information (21), although the
treatment of post traumatic symptomology is currently understood.  Hence, it
is important for the therapist to retain the same non-judgemental and helpful
stance necessary to the successful treatment of any other traumatic insult.
When a therapist labels material as either unacceptable or insane, the
burden of the patient is increased.  If the therapist is reacting out of
prejudices which reflect his own closely-held beliefs rather than his
complete certainty, he unfairly increases the distress of the patient.

        SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS:        Although it has long been the
"common wisdom" of both the professional and lay communities that anyone
claiming to be the victim of abduction by UFO occupants must be seriously
disturbed, thoroughly deluded or a liar, careful examination of both the
reports and their reports calls this assumption into question. Clinical and
psychometric investigation of abductees reveals four areas of discrepancy
between the expected data and the observable phenomena and suggests further
investigation.  These discrepant areas are:

        1. ABSENCE OF PSYCHOPATHOLOGY   An unexpected absence of severe
psychopathology coupled with the high level of functioning found in many
abductees is a perplexing and surprising finding. Psychometric evaluation
of nine abductees revealed a notable heterogeneity of psychological and
psychometric characteristics.  The major area of homogeneity was in the
absence of significant psychopathology.  Rather than consulting a subset
of the severely disturbed and psychotic population, there is clinical
evidence that at least some abductees are high functioning, healthy
individuals.  This interesting discrepancy requires further investigation.

        2. CONCORDANCE OF REPORTS       Highly dissimilar people produce
strikingly similar accounts of abductions by UFO occupants.  The basic
scenarios are highly concordant in detail and events.  This is surprising in
light of the widely divergent cultural, socio-economic, educational,
occupational, intellectual and emotional status of abductees.  Further, the
scenarios themselves do not seem to show the same layering of affect and
symbolic richness present in other fantasy endowed material.  Instead,
symbolic and conceptual complexity centers around the meaning of the
experience for the individual, not around the shape, form, activity, intent,
etc., of the aliens and their environment.  This is in stark contrast to the
expected complexity and diversity of thematic and symbolic elaboration found
in our fantasy material.

        3. RESISTANCE TO SUGGESTION UNDER HYPNOSIS      Abduction scenario
concordance is frequently attributed to the introduction of material into the
suggestible mind of a hypnotized patient.  Examination of abduction reports
indicates that a significant percentage of these reports emerge into conscious
awareness prior to the use of hypnosis or other techniques employed to
stimulate recall.  Furthermore abductees resist being lead or diverted during
hypnosis and regularly insist on correcting the hypnotist so that their report
remains accurate according to their own perceptions.

        4. PTSD IN THE ABSENCE OF TRAUMA        Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder (PTSD) has not been previously reported in patients experiencing
overwhelming stress predicted only in internally generated states such as
psychotic delusional systems or phobias.  But patients reporting abduction
frequently show classic signs and symptoms of PTSD. Like other kinds of PTSD
it is subject to clinical intervention which frequently leads to substantial
clinical improvement.  But in order for this improvement to occur, the patient
must be treated for the PTSD he exhibits rather than the psychotic state he is
presumed to display by virtue of his abduction report.  If the abduction
scenarios represent only a fantasy state, then it is worth investigating why
(and how) this particular highly concordant and deeply disturbing fantasy is
involved in the pathogenesis of a condition otherwise seen only following
externally induced trauma. Further, if this is found to be the case, the
nature of PTSD itself should be re-examined in light of this finding.
Alternatively, it may be that the trauma is, in fact, an external one which
has taken place and the post traumatic state represents an expected response
on the part of a traumatized patient.

        It is not within the area of expertise of the clinician to make an
accurate determination about the objective validity of UFO abduction events.
But it is certainly within his purview to assist the patient in regaining a
sense of appropriate mastery, anxiety reduction and the alleviation of the
clinical symptomalogy as efficiently and effectively as possible.  This is
best accomplished through an assessment the patient's *actual* state of
psycho-dynamic organization, not his *presumed* state.  In other words, in
order to make the diagnosis of a psychotic or delusional state, findings other
than the presence of a belief in UFO abduction must be present.  In the
absence of other indications of severe psychopathology, it is inappropriate to
treat the patient as if he were afflicted with such psychopathology.  It lies
outside the realm of clinical expertise to determine with absolute certainty
whether or not a UFO abduction has indeed taken place. Patients should not be
viewed as demonstrating prima facie evidence of pervasive psychotic
dysfunction because of the abduction material alone nor should they be
hospitalized or treated with anti-psychotic medication based solely on the
presence of UFO abduction scenarios. Instead, they should be assessed on the
basis of their overall psychologic state.  Unless otherwise indicated,
treatment should be focused on the PTSD symptomatology and its repair.

        The areas of discrepancy which arise from the examination of UFO
abductees between the expected clinical finding and the observed ones
highlight interesting questions which require further investigation into
the nature and impact of fantasy on psycho-dynamic states and symptom
formation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1)Westrum, R., Social Intelligence About Hidden Events,
Knowledge:Creation, Diffusion, Utilization, Vol 3 No 3,
March 1982, p.382
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2)Hopkins, B. Missing Time: A Documented Study of UFO Abductions.
New York, Richard Marek 1981.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(3)Slater, E., Ph.D. "Conclusions on Nine Psychologicals" in
Final Report on the Psychological Testing of UFO Abductees"
Mt Ranier, MD, 1985
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(4)Slater, E., Ph.D. Addendum to "Conclusions on Nine Psychological"
in Final Report on the Psychological Testing of UFO "Abductees", op.cit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(5)Creighton, G. "The Amazing Case of Antonio Villas Boas" in
Rogo, D>S>, ed., Alien Abductions. New York, New American
Library, pp. 51-83, 1980.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(6)Hopkins,B. Missing Time: A Documented Study of UFO Abductions. op.cit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(7)Druffel,A. "Harrison Bailey and the 'Flying Saucer Disease'" in
Rogo, S.D., ed., op.cit.  pp. 122-137
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(8)Strieber, W. Communion. New York, Avon, 1987
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(9)Fowler, R. The Andreasson Affair. New York, Bantam Books, 1979
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(10)Fuller, J. The Interrupted Journey. New York, Dell, 1966
---------------------------------------
(11)Hopkins, B. Intruders: The Incredible Visitation at Copley Woods.
New York, Random House, 1987
--------------------------------------
(12)Hopkins, B. Personal communications with the author about the more
than 200 abductees whom Mr. Hopkins has investigated both with and
without the use of hypnosis.
---------------------------------------
(13)Westrum, R. personal communication with the author.
---------------------------------------
(14)Hopkins, B. personal communication with the author.
---------------------------------------
(15)Hopkins, B. "The Investigation of UFO Reports" in The Spectrum
of UFO Research. Proceedings of the Second CUFOS Conference
(September 25-27, 1981), Hynek, M. ed., pp 171-2, Chicago,
J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, 1988.
---------------------------------------
(16)Kardiner, A., The Traumatic Neuroses of War. New York,
P. Hoeber, 1941
---------------------------------------
(17)van Der Kolk, B.A., Psychological Trauma. Washington, DC, American
Psychiatric Press, 1987
---------------------------------------
(18)Horowitz,M.J., Stress Response Syndromes. New York, Jason Aronson,1976
---------------------------------------
(19)van Der Kolk, op.cit.
---------------------------------------
(20)American Psychiatric Association: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
of Mental Disorders, 3rd ed. Washington, DC,
American Psychiatric Association, 1980
---------------------------------------
(21)Slater, op.cit.
---------------------------------------

EOF

--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the rest of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :^)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Grudge|TLC|CFR|FED|EEC|Bush > WAR = "New World Order"


From lassie!voder!pyramid!decwrl!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona Mon Apr 15 15:42:19 PDT 1991
Article: 3929 of alt.conspiracy
Path: lassie!voder!pyramid!decwrl!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INFO: Roswell Witness Linkage
Keywords: Roswell UFO USAF Coverup "Weather Balloon"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Apr 91 02:19:39 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 448
Xref: lassie alt.conspiracy:3929

This is an article that was posted on Paranet not long ago
and germane to the infamous Roswell case a number of years
ago.

----------Begin included text------------------------------


Message #4515 - INFO.PARANET
   Date : 17-Dec-90  2:11
   From : Michael Corbin
     To : All
Subject : Roswell Witness Surfaces

Here is an article that was contributed by Sandy Barbre regarding an article
which appeared in a Springfield, MO newspaper on December 9, 1990.
============================================================
CONTRIBUTED BY: Sandy Barbre
December 17, 1990
============================================================
The following was taken from a newspaper from Springfield, Missouri,
dated Sunday, December 9th, 1990.  The name of the newspaper I think,
is the NEWS-LEADER and article is in the section called Ozarks Accent.

-+--------------

TITLED:  NOTED EXPERT FINDS ACCOUNT CONVINCING.
BY: Mike O'Brien

   What sets Gerald Anderson apart from the thousands of other
   American's, including scores of Ozarkers, who say they've seen
   UFO's or even insist they've been kidnapped by creatures from
   outer space?

   Why are Gerald Anderson's childhood recollections stirring
   international interest among UFO researchers whose reputations
   have been built on healthy skepticism and willingness to
   debunk hoaxes?

   Because of little things he has to say and how he says them.

   Stanton Friedman, a nuclear physicist who has lectured on more
   than 600 college campuses about UFOs, describes Anderson as "a
   really significant, potentially the most important" witness to
   what both men believe was the aftermath of one of two space
   craft crashes in New Mexico in mid-summer 1947.

   Friedman is co-authoring a book based upon several years of
   painstaking investigation into the haunting mystery.  He was
   startled, upon meeting Anderson for the first time only a few
   months ago, to hear the Springfieldian echo details of the yet
   to be published research.

   "There's no way he could know some of these things unless he
   had been there at the time," Friedman believes.

   Example:  only days before first talking with Anderson,
   Friedman coaxed a heretofore reluctant New Mexico mortician
   into recounting a run-in he'd had in 1947 with an especially
   unpleasant red-headed captain who was heading up a team
   recovering bodies from a hush-hush aircraft crash.  Anderson,
   too, spoke of a red-headed captain with a mean disposition.
   Friedman says the descriptions of the ornery officer provided
   by the two match precisely, although Anderson and the mortician
   never have met.

   In sketches of the desert crash scene drawn by Anderson in
   Springfield following a hypnosis, a lonely windmill appears in
   the distance.  When Friedman later arranged for Anderson to
   return to New Mexico to pinpoint the long-ago crash site, no
   such windmill could be see on the horizon-- until, almost by
   accident, the windmill wa spotted behind tress that had grown
   up during the 43 years since Anderson was last there.

   "I got shivers over that one," says John Carpenter, who has
   extensively debriefed Anderson over the past 4 months and went
   along on Anderson's return trip to New Mexico in October.

   Carpenter holds degrees in psychology and psychiatric social
   work from DePauw and Washington universities and trained in
   clinical hypnosis at the Menninger Institute.  He's in his
   12th year of work at a psychiatric hospital facility in
   Springfield.

   "When Gerald tells his story, it's not just a story -- it's
   his life he's telling you, intermixed with his feelings and
   his beliefs and all that is Gerald," Carpenter says.

   "When someone is spinning a hoax or tale, they only give you
   enough to raise your curiosity.  Not Gerald.  He gives you
   everything, in detail, much more than you ask him for.  He'd
   be setting himself up to be found out if it wasn't true.  He's
   so confident, he goes so much further than a hoaxer would ever
   dare."

   Carpenter puts great stock in Anderson's recountings under
   hypnosis.  "It's what he didn't say that was significant."
   Carpenter says, explaining that despite clever prodding,
   Anderson never committed a hoaxer's mistake of "recalling"
   something that shouldn't be a part of his own memory.

   "And when he's under hypnosis, all the bigger, adult words
   drop out when he describes events from his childhood,"
   Carpenter found.  "He relates what he was in child-like
   terms."

   Carpenter also detected "genuine amazement" when Anderson
   heard what had been dredged from his subconscious memory under
   hypnosis.  "The look on his face was priceless when he realized
   he'd produced details he'd forgotten on a conscious level so
   long ago."

   Most subtle but perhaps most telling, in Carpenter's view, was
   Anderson's reaction to being accepted as a viable witness to
   an extraordinary encounter with a spacecraft and creatures from
   beyond Earth.

   "He was so grateful at being taken seriously.  You could see
   the relief and release after all those years, and the great
   hope that other people would take him seriously too, once and
   for all."

   Ironically, Friedman points to Gallup Poll results indicating
   that 60 percent of Americans who have college degrees say they
   believe UFOs are real.  With such a receptive constituency,
   why would government officials persist in what Friedman calls
   the "Cosmic Watergate" -- the cover-up and denial of the New
   Mexico crashes?  Perhaps, some speculate, because it would be
   too embarrassing now to admit that some supposedly made-in-USA
   technologies actually were plagiarized from confiscated
   spacecraft.

   Friedman emphasizes that he's not as interested in uncovering
   past misdeeds as he is in encouraging future progress.

   "I believe we should have an 'Earthling" orientation rather
   than nationalistic orientation.  The easiest way to
   demonstrate the wisdom of this is to prove that life forms
   from other planets are coming here.  If we can do that, then
   everyone will be forced to look at our world differently, as a
   part of a galactic neighborhood."

-+-----end.

The second part of the Springfield newspaper, dated December 9th,
1990 is as follows:

Titled:  Fact or Fantasy?  Springfieldian seeks validation of UFO
         encounter 43 years ago.

Written by: Mike O'Brien

ALSO NOTE: the actual newspaper article shows a scene of the UFO
crash drawn by Gerald Anderson and also a sketch of a creature he
believes was a visitor from another galaxy.

-+-------------begin story--------------

   To a 5-year-old kid from Indianapolis, the mountains and mesas
and vast scrubland surrounding Albuquerque seemed an alien world.
   "I was in awe" recalls Gerald Anderson of his arrival in New
Mexico with his family in July 1947.  "I was in the wild
frontier.  There were real, live Indians out there."
   Then says Anderson, on his second day in the Southwest he
bumped into real,live creatures from a truly alien world.
   There were four -- two dead, on dying, one apparently
uninjured.  The creatures were about 4 feet tall, with heads
disproportionately large for their bodies by human measure and
almond-shaped, coal black eyes.  They huddled in the shadow of
50-ft-diameter silver disk - a "flying saucer" that had crashed
into a low hillside on the rim of what locals call the Plains of
San Augustin.
   Anderson, a former police chief at Rockaway Beach and Taney
County deputy sheriff who now works as a security officer in
Springfield, is adamant about events on the hot midsummer day so
long ago.
   "I saw them.  I even touched one of the creatures.  I put my
hand on their ship.  And I wasn't alone - my dad, my uncle, my
brother and my cousin all saw the same things.  And so did a lot
of other people.  But they aren't talking.
   Anderson is talking, publicly, after 43 years of silence.
   Among those listening most intently are some of the foremost
researchers into unidentified flying object (UFO phenomena.
These experts say Gerald Anderson appears to be an important link
in a frustratingly fragmented chain of evidence concerning the
most famous - or infamous - chapter in UFO annals: the so called
"Roswell Incident."
   No one denies that "something" happened in July 1947 in
central New Mexico, cradle of U.S. nuclear and rocket technology.
However, military authorities insist reports of strange craft in
the sky and bizarre wreckage on the ground were traced at the time
to an errant weather balloon and other manmade or natural
circumstance.
   Nonetheless, over the years, persistent whispered rumors grew
into published articles and books, even movies, which fanned
speculation that what actually occurred was a visit by creatures
from another planet - an intergalactic expedition that turned to
tragedy on the high desert and then into a massive cover-up in the
highest circles of the U.S. government.
   Anderson says he was unaware of ongoing fascination and
controversy over the strange episode from his childhood until one
evening this past January when he was flipping through channels
on his television set and stumbled across the popular program
"Unsolved Mysteries."
   "I wasn't looking for any unsolved mysteries - I have enough
mysteries in my life that are unsolved, and I don't need any
more," Anderson jokes.  He is a burly, barrel-chested man
standing 6-4 and carrying a muscular 250-plus pounds, with
reddish hair and a ruddy complexion creased from easy laughter.
   "But, bingo! On comes this story, and everything was wrong,"
Anderson recalls of the TV show.  On sudden impulse, he dialed an
800 phone number that flashed onto the screen. "I guess I figured
that if people were still interested in this thing, they might as
well get it straight" is the only explanation he can muster for
speaking up after years of keeping mostly mum on the matter.
   "These people don't know what they're talking about," Anderson
told the operator on the other end of the long-distance line.
"The shape of the craft is totally wrong. 'And how do you know
that, sir?" she asked. ' I saw it, I was there,' I told her.
"Whoa!" she said.  "Thee are some people who will want to talk to
you...'"
   Anderson's phone soon was ringing with calls from UFO
researchers around the country.  One in particular, Stanton
Friedman, a nuclear physicist and popular lecturer who had
advised the "Unsolved Mysteries" producers, was struck by
correlations between Anderson's recollections and obscure
details Friedman uncovered while sleuthing for a book to be
published next year.
   Friedman, who lives in Canada, contacted John Carpenter, a
Springfield professional therapist who in his spare time serves as a
director of investigations for the local chapter of Mutual UFO
Network, a nationwide organization of UFO researchers.  At Friedman's
request, Carpenter conducted extensive in person interviews of
Anderson, including sessions under hypnosis.
   The results excited Friedman.  "Powerful stuff!" he exclaimed upon
hearing interview tapes.  Friedman arranged airline tickets for
Anderson and Carpenter to join him in New Mexico to pinpoint the crash
site.
   Anderson says the flight was his first return to New Mexico in more
than a quarter-century.  After pointing the pilot of a chartered
helicopter to a spot in the desert 75 air miles southwest of
Albuquerque, Anderson gazed at a hillside, strewn with boulders the
size of Volkswagens and dotted with a few gnarled pinion trees, that
he says he saw in the summer of 1947.....

A NEW HOME

   The Anderson family arrived in Albuquerque from Indiana on July 4,
1947.  they took up temporary residence at the home of one of Gerald's
uncles, Guy Anderson.  Gerald's father, Glen, was about to take a job
as a master machinist involved in nuclear weapons design at the
super-secret Sandia base on the outskirts of town.
   The next day, another uncle, Ted, struck up a conversation with
Gerald's older brother Glen Jr., who was on leave from the Marine
Corps.  Glen Jr. was a rockhound, and his uncle piqued the young
Marine's enthusiasm with talks of gorgeous stones just waiting to be
collected in the desert.
  " Ted told my brother, ' I know where there's plenty of moss agate.'
So we all piled into a 1940 Plymouth - Uncle Ted, my cousin Victor
(Ted's 8 year old son), my brother, Glen, my dad and myself.  We went
out into this area where the moss agate was supposed to be - followed
two ruts into the desert, bounced along out there for a while, and
ended up on top of a ridgeline.  We parked the car and started to walk
down an arroyo (gully) and dry creek bed and out onto the plains.


A STRANGE DISCOVERY

   "But we came around a corner and right there in front of us stuck
into the side of this hill, was a silver disc.  There were some
remarks like"There's a crash up here!  Something's crashed up here! And
then someone saying 'That's a goddamn spaceship!"
"We all went up there to it.  There were three creatures, three
bodies, lying on the ground underneath this thing in the shade.  Two
weren't moving and the third one obviously was having trouble
breathing, like when you have broken ribs.  There was a fourth one
next to it, sitting there on the ground.  There wasn't a thing wrong
with it, and it apparently had been giving first aid to the others.
   Anderson animatedly acts out the fourth creature's reaction when
the family members approached. "It recoiled in fear, like it thought
we were going to attack it," anderson recounts, covering his face with
crossed arms.  The adults tried to repeatedly to communicate with the
frightened creature, Anderson says, but there was no audible response
to greetings spoken in English and Spanish.
   A few minutes after the Anderson clan happened upon the bizarre
scene, six other people arrived - five college students and their
teacher.  They'd been working on an archaeological dig around cliff
dwellings a few miles away and had decided to hike over after seeing
what they thought was a firey meteor crashing the night before.  The
professor, a Dr. Buskirk, tried several foreign languages in
unsuccessful attempts to coax a verbal response from the creature,
Anderson says.
   The sun had climbed to a midday peak by this time and recalls
anderson, "to a kid from Indiana, it was hot brother, let me tell
you."  He chugged a chocolate flavored soft drink an hour earlier and
the sweet soda pop was churning uncomfortably in his stomach. so he
sought shelter in the shadow of the spacecraft.
   "It was 115 (degrees) out there that day.  But around the craft,
when you got close to it, it was cold.  When you touched the metal, it
felt just like it came out of a freezer."

SOMETHING WASN'T RIGHT

   Anderson also touched one of the creatures lying motionless on the
ground - and it, too was cold.  In his child's mind, he had thought the
figures looked like dolls.  But when he felt the cold skin, " I knew
something wasn't quite right.  Yuck!.
   Anderson says he ran to the crest of a nearby knoll to take stock.  A
pickup truck arrived on the ridge, and a fellow whom researchers believe
was a civil engineer named Barney Barnett joined the curious audience.  "I
remember thinking he looked like Harry Truman.  In 1947, every kid knew
what Harry Truman looked like," Anderson says.
   After a few minutes, Anderson summoned the courage to again creep close
to the strange saucer.  It was then more chilling than the surface of the
craft of the skin of the corpse; The upright creature turned and looked
right at me and it was like he was inside my head - as if he was doing my
thinking, as if his thoughts were in my head."
   Anderson remembers a mental sensation of falling and tumbling
end-over-end. "I felt that thing's fear, felt its depression, felt its
loneliness.  I relived the crash.  I know the terror it went through.  That
one look told me everything that quickly," he says with a snap of his
fingers.

   Other things began happening quickly about this time, Anderson says.  A
contingent of armed soldiers suddenly appeared.  The creature, which had
calmed down after its initial fright, "went crazy" at the sight of the
soldiers.  Thinking back on the creature's plight today brings on the
"awfulest, horrible feeling," Anderson says.
   "His situation was hopeless. He knew it.  He'd just lived through a
nightmare that most of us wouldn't be able to psychologically stand.  He'd
watched two of his crew, his friends or maybe even his family die.  He's
watching another one die. He knows there's no chance of rescue, because the
military is here and his people aren't going to be able to get him.
   "God only knows how far away from home he was, and he knew he was never
going to see - if they have loved ones - his loved ones again.  He was
totally alone on a hostile planet, and the only people who where showing
him kindness were being run off by the military at weapon-point.
   "As a kid, I was aware of what being afraid of the dark was like., and
the feeling I got from him was that feeling multiplied a million times.  It
was scary.  It was terrifying.


SOLDIERS ON THE SCENE

   Anderson says he lost sight of the creature as the soldiers swarmed over
the site.  The civilians were brusquely shoved from the craft. Anderson
remembers shouts and threats.  His uncle Ted threw a punch at one of
the GIs.  "Things got very tense, very dangerous," Anderson says.
"The soldiers ushered us out of there very unceremoniously.  Their
attitude, to describe it at best, was uncivilized."
   Anderson has an especially vivid memory of a tough-talking red
haired Army captain and an equally gruff black sergeant.  "They told
my dad and my uncle, who also worked at Sandia, that if they were ever
to divulge anything about this - it was a secret military aircraft,
they said - then us kids would be taken away and they'd never see us
again."  It seems an outrageous threat in hindsight, Anderson
concedes.  But at the time, he reminds, "These people had machine guns
and you listened to what they said."
   Another recollection strikes Anderson as odd today:  The soldiers
didn't appear surprised about the otherwordly craft and creatures.
they didn't gawk, slack-jawed and awe-struck as the Andersons had done.
"The soldiers weren't saying, 'Gee, look at that!"  They were very
cognizant of what they were looking at.  They knew what it was.
   And it soon became apparent, Anderson says, that the Army knew what
it wanted to do with the find. "there was a battalion of military, a
real invasion force, when we got back up on the hilltop.  There were
trucks, there were airplanes - they had the road blocked off and they
were landing on it.  They had radio communications gear set up.  There
were ambulances, and more soldiers with weapons."
   In the days that followed, all of New Mexico was abuzz with talk of
strange lights in the sky, strange echos on radar, strange doings in
the desert.  On July 7, new reports told of remnants of an
unidentified aircraft found by a rancher near the town of Roswell,
N.M. about 150 miles east of the hillside where the Anderson's stumbled
upon the saucer.
   Although several witnesses said it was like nothing they'd ever
seen before, military officers insisted the metallic pieces came from
an ordinary weather balloon.....

A WEATHER BALLOON?

   Forty three years later, Anderson smiles wryly when reminded of the
Army's pronouncement, "A lot of people wondered why, if it was just a
weather balloon, the military put the pieces under armed guard and flew
them in a B-29 to Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio," he observes.
   Anderson believes the wreckage scattered near Roswell and the barely
damaged saucer on the Plains of San Augustin are connected.  "There was a
gash in the side of the disc we saw, like it had been crushed in," he says.
"The contour of the craft would fit into that gash perfectly - like another
one of these things had hit it.  I think two of these discs had a mid-air
collision.  One exploded and feel in pieces near Roswell, and the other
crash-landed where we found it.
   With all evidence confiscated and the military steadfastly sticking
by the weather balloon explanation, the story faded from the news by July's
end.  And Gerald Anderson says he tucked away the memory as he grew into
manhood.  "I learned you just don't go up to the average person on the
street and say, "Damn, know what I saw?" The guy will go, "Get away from
me, fool!  Are you crazy?"  In later life, he didn't mention it even to his
wife until a few years after their marriage.
   Anderson joined the Navy in the late 1950s and served a dozen years in
posts around the globe.  He lived for a few years in Colorado, working as a
paramedic and working toward a college degree in microbiology.  In 1979, he
moved to Missouri to better raise his daughter away from what he terms the
"druggy" atmosphere of Denver.  In addition to his law enforcement posts,
Anderson has worked for two southwest Missouri trucking firms as a driver
and instructor.
   Anderson also has been active in the Episcopal Church.  He recently was
elected to the vestry at Ascension Episcopal in Springfield and is studying
toward becoming a deacon.   A gold crucifix - a cross complete with a
figure of the martyred Christ affixed to it - suspended from a chain around
Anderson's neck is testimony to his faith.


NO CONFLICT IN BELIEFS

   Although he concedes his account might make some fellow churchgoers
uncomfortable, Anderson sees no conflict between what he saw with his eyes
and what he believes in his heart:  "When you're talking about the concept
of God, you have to be talking in the context of a universal situations, a
deity that built the whole universe.  And why should we assume that this
speck of sand in the backwater of space would be the only place that an
all-perfect, almighty God could create life?"
   In fact, Anderson says he "wouldn't be one bit surprised to find out
that, wherever this creature came from, there they have a very strong
concept of a supreme being.  Because of my contact with the creature showed
a high degree of civilized sophistication, gentleness, compassion - all of
the things we hold as ideals."
   Of the five anderson men who ventured into the desert that day in 1947,
only Gerald is still alive. Age, illness and accidents claimed the other
four in recent years.  But not only andersons were at the scene, Gerald
says, and he hopes his decision to come forth, albeit belated, will
encourage others to tell what they know and spur official revelations about
the captured craft and creatures.
   "I want to see the government stand up and say, 'Look, we're not alone
in the universe.
 Let's make a 'Star Trek' really happen.  Let's do go out there and explore
the universe.  That may be our only salvation. Because with what's doing to
this Earth, we're not going to make it much past the year 2000."

-+-----end of story--------------

EOF


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the rest of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :^)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Grudge|TLC|CFR|FED|EEC|Bush > WAR = "New World Order"


From lassie!voder!pyramid!decwrl!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona Mon Apr 15 15:42:51 PDT 1991
Article: 3930 of alt.conspiracy
Path: lassie!voder!pyramid!decwrl!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INFO:CHAPTER XIII - UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS
Keywords: USAF Chapter in Training Textbook, long since censored.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Apr 91 02:50:20 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 686
Xref: lassie alt.conspiracy:3930

This is considered a *classic* among various UFO text files.

Read and make up your own mind :-)

-------Begin included text -----------------------------------



             CUFON - UFO Information Service Seattle, Washington
 _______________________________________________________________

    INTRODUCTORY SPACE SCIENCE - VOLUME II - DEPARTMENT OF PHYSICS - USAF
                                  Edited by:
                          Major Donald G. Carpenter
                                  Co-Editor:
                      Lt. Colonel Edward R. Therkelson
                                 CHAPTER XIII
                          UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
     What is an Unidentified Flying Object (UFO)?  Well, according to United
 States Air Force Regulation 80-17 (dated 19 September 1966), a UFO is "Any"
 aerial Phenomenon or object which is unknown or appears to be out of the
 ordinary to the observer."  This is a very broad definition which applies
 equally well to one individual seeing his first noctilucent cloud at
 twilight as it does to another individual seeing his first helicopter.
 However, at present most people consider the term UFO to mean an object
 which behaves in a strange or erratic manner while moving through the
 Earth's atmosphere.  That strange phenomenon has evoked strong emotions
 and great curiosity among a large segment of our world's population.  The
 average person is interested because he loves a mystery, the professional
 military man is involved because of the possible threat to national
 security, and some scientists are interested because of the basic curiosity
 that led them into becoming researchers.

     The literature on UFO's is so vast, and the stories so many and varied,
 that we can only present a sketchy outline of the subject in this chapter.
 That outline includes description classifications, operational domains
 (temporal and spatial), some theories as to the nature of the UFO
 phenomenon, human reactions, attempts to attack the problem scientifically,
 and some tentative conclusions.  If you wish to read further in this area,
 the references provide an excellent starting point.

 33.1 DESCRIPTIONS

     One of the greatest problems you encounter when attempting to catalog
 UFO sightings, is selection of a system for cataloging.  No effective
 system has yet been devised, although a number of different systems have
 been proposed.  The net result is that almost all UFO data are either
 treated in the form of individual cases, or in the forms of inadequate
 classification systems.  However, these systems do tend to have some common
 factors, and a collection of these factors is as follows:

  a. Size
  b. Shape (disc, ellipse, football, etc.)
  c. Luminosity
  d. Color
  e. Number of UFO's

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------


                               ( Page Two )

              CUFON - UFO Information Service Seattle, Washington
________________________________________________________________

 Behavior:

     a. Location (altitude, direction, etc.)
     b. Patterns of paths (straight line, climbing, zig-zagging, etc.)
     c. Flight Characteristics (wobbling, fluttering, etc.)
     d. Periodicity of sightings
     e. Time duration
     f. Curiosity or inquisitiveness
     g. Avoidance
     h. Hostility

 Associated Effects:

     a. Electro-Magnetic (compass, radio, ignition systems, etc.)
     b. Radiation (burns, induced radioactivity, etc.)
     c. Ground disturbance (dust stirred up, leaves moved, standing wave
     d. Sound (none, hissing, humming, roaring, thunderclaps, etc.)
     e. Vibration (weak, strong, slow, fast)
     f. Smell (ozone or other odor)
     g. Flame (how much, where, when, color)
     h. Smoke or cloud (amount, color, persistence)
     i. Debris (type, amount, color, persistence)
     j. Inhibition of voluntary movement by observers
     k. Sighting of "creatures" or "beings"

 After Effects:

     a. Burned areas or animals
     b. Depressed or flattened areas
     c. Dead or missing animals
     d. Mentally disturbed people
     e. Missing items

 We make no attempt here to present available data in terms of the foregoing
 descriptors.

                           ( Page Three )

             CUFON - UFO Information Service Seattle, Washington
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 33.2 OPERATIONAL DOMAINS - TEMPORAL AND SPATIAL

     What we will do here is to present evidence that UFO's are a global
 phenomenon which may have persisted for many thousands of years.  During
 this discussion, please remember that the more ancient the reports the less
 sophisticated the observer.  Not only were the ancient observers lacking
 the terminology necessary to describe complex devices (such as present day
 helicopters) but they were also lacking the concepts necessary to
 understand the true nature of such things as television, spaceships,
 rockets, nuclear weapons and radiation effects.  To some, the most
 advanced technological concept was a war chariot with knife blades attached
 to the wheels.  By the same token, the very lack of accurate terminology
 and descriptions leaves the more ancient reports open to considerable
 misinterpretation, and it may well be that present evaluations of
 individual reports are completely wrong.  Nevertheless, let us start with
 an intriguing story in one of the oldest chronicles of India...the Book of
 Dzyan.

     The book is a group of "story-teller" legends which were finally
 gathered in manuscript form when man learned to write.  One of the stories
 is of a small group of beings who supposedly came to Earth many thousands
 of years ago in a metal craft which orbited the Earth several times before
 landing.  As told in the Book "These beings lived to themselves and were
 revered by the humans among whom they had settled.  But eventually
 differences arose among them and they divided their numbers, several of the
 men and women and some children settled in another city, where they were
 promptly installed as rulers by the awe-stricken populace.

     "Separation did not bring peace to these people and finally their
 anger reached a point where the ruler of the original city took with him
 a small number of his warriors and they rose into the air in a huge shining
 metal vessel.  While they were many leagues from the city of their enemies,
 they launched a great shining lance that rode on a beam of light.  It burst
 apart in the city of their enemies with a great ball of flame that shot up
 to the heavens, almost to the stars.  All those who were in the city were
 horribly burned and even those who were not in the city - but nearby - were
 burned also.  Those who looked upon the lance and the ball of fire were
 blinded forever afterward.  Those who entered the city on foot became ill
 and died.  Even the dust of the city was poisoned, as were the rivers that
 flowed through it.  Men dared not go near it, and it gradually crumbled
 into dust and was forgotten by men."

     "When the leader saw what he had done to his own people he retired to
 his palace and refused to see anyone.  Then he gathered about him those
 warriors who remained, and their wives and children, and they entered their
 vessels and rose one by one into the sky and sailed away.  Nor did they
 return."
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Continued -


                               ( Page Four )

            CUFON - UFO Information Service Seattle, Washington
________________________________________________________________

     Could this foregoing legend really be an account of an extraterrestrial
 colonization, complete with guided missle, nuclear warhead and radiation
 effects?  It is difficult to assess the validity of that explanation...
 just as it is difficult to explain why Greek, Roman and Nordic Mythology
 all discuss wars and contacts among their "Gods."  (Even the Bible records
 conflict between the legions of God and Satan.)  Could it be that each
 group recorded their parochial view of what was actually a global conflict
 among alien colonists or visitors?  Or is it that man has led such a
 violent existence that he tends to expect conflict and violence among even
 his gods?

     Evidence of perhaps an even earlier possible contact was uncovered by
 Tschi Pen Lao of the University of Peking.  He discovered astonishing
 carvings in granite on a mountain in Hunan Province and on an island in
 Lake Tungting.  These carvings have been evaluated as 47,000 years old, and
 they show people with large trunks (breathing apparatus?...or "elephant"
 heads shown on human bodies?  Remember, the Egyptians often represented
 their gods as animal heads on human bodies.)

     Only 8,000 years ago, rocks were sculpted in the Tassili plateau of
 Sahara, depicting what appeared to be human beings but with strange round
 heads (helmets? or "sun" heads on human bodies?)  And even more recently,
 in the Bible, Genesis (6:4) tells of angels from the sky mating with women
 of Earth, who bore them children.  Genesis 19:3 tells of Lot meeting two
 angels in the desert and his later feeding them at his house.  The Bible
 also tells a rather unusual story of Ezekiel who witnessed what has been
 interpreted by some to have been a spacecraft or aircraft landing near the
 Chebar River in Chaldea (593 B.C.).

     Even the Irish have recorded strange visitations.  In the Speculum
 Regali in Konungs Skuggsa (and other accounts of the era about 956 A.D.)
 are numerous stories of "demonships" in the skies.  In one case a rope from
 one such ship became entangled with part of a church.  A man from the ship
 climbed down the rope to free it, but was seized by the townspeople.  The
 bishop made the people release the man, who climbed back to the ship,
 where the crew cut the rope and the ship rose and sailed out of sight.
 In all of his actions, the climbing man appeared as if he were swimming
 in water.  Stories such as this makes one wonder if the legends of the
 "little people" of Ireland were based upon imagination alone.

     About the same time, in Lyons (France) three men and a women supposedly
 descended from an airship or spaceship and were captured by a mob.  These
 foreigners admitted to being wizards, and were killed.  (No mention is
 made of the methods employed to extract the admissions.)  Many documented
 UFO sightings occurred throughout the Middle Ages, including an especially
 startling one of a UFO over London on 16 December 1742.  However, we do
 not have room to include any more of the Middle Ages sightings.  Instead,
 two "more-recent" sightings are contained in this section to bring us up to
 modern times.
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Continued -


                             ( Page Five )

            CUFON - UFO Information Service Seattle, Washington

________________________________________________________________


     In a sworn statement dated 21 April 1897, a prosperous and prominent
 farmer named Alexander Hamilton (Le Roy, Kansas, U.S.A.) told of an attack
 upon his cattle at about 10:30 p.m. the previous Monday.  He, his son, and
 his tenant grabbed axes and ran some 700 feet from the house to the cow
 lot where a great cigar-shaped ship about 300 feet long floated some 30
 feet above the cattle.  It had a carriage underneath which was brightly
 lighted within (dirigible and gondola?) and which had numerous windows.
 Inside were six strange looking beings jabbering in a foreign language.
 These beings suddenly became aware of Hamilton and the others.  They
 immediately turned a searchlight on the farmer, and also turned on some
 power which sped up a turbine wheel (about 30 ft diameter) located under
 the craft.  The ship rose, taking with it a two-year old heifer which was
 roped about the neck by a cable of one-half inch thick, red material.  The
 next day a neighbor, Link Thomas, found the animal's hide, legs and head
 in his field.  He was mystified at how the remains got to where they were
 because of the lack of tracks in the soft soil.  Alexander Hamilton's sworn
 statement was accompanied by an affidavit as to his veracity.  The
 affidavit was signed by ten of the local leading citizens.

     On the evening of 4 November 1957 at Fort Itaipu, Brazil, two sentries
 noted a "new star" in the sky.  The "star" grew in size and within seconds
 stopped over the fort.  It drifted slowly downward, was as large as a big
 aircraft, and was surround by a strong orange glow.  A distinct humming
 sound was heard, and then the heat struck.  One sentry collapsed almost
 immediately, the other managed to slide to shelter under the heavy cannons
 where his loud cries awoke the garrison.  While the troops were scrambling
 towards their battle stations, complete electrical failure occurred.
 There was panic until the lights came back on but a number of men still
 managed to see an orange glow leaving the area at high speed.  Both
 sentries were found badly burned...one unconscious and the other incoherent,
 suffering from deep shock.

     Thus, UFO sightings not only appear to extend back to 47,000 years
 through time but also are global in nature.  One has the feeling that
 this phenomenon deserves some sort of valid scientific investigation, even
 if it is a low level effort.
 33.3 SOME THEORIES AS TO THE NATURE OF THE UFO PHENOMENON
     There are very few cohesive theories as to the nature of UFO's.  Those
 theories that have been advanced can be collected in five groups:
     a. Mysticism
     b. Hoaxes, and rantings due to unstable personalities
     c. Secret Weapons
     d. Natural Phenomena
     e. Alien visitors
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Continued -

                                   PAGE SIX
________________________________________________________________

 Mysticism

     It is believed by some cults that the mission of UFO's and their crews
 is a spiritual one, and that all materialistic efforts to determine the
 UFO's nature are doomed to failure.

 Hoaxes and Rantings due to Unstable Personalities

     Some have suggested that all UFO reports were the results of pranks
 and hoaxes, or were made by people with unstable personalities.  This
 attitude was particularly prevalent during the time period when the Air
 Force investigation was being operated under the code name of Project
 Grudge.  A few airlines even went as far as to ground every pilot who
 reported seeing a "flying saucer."  The only way for the pilot to regain
 flight status was to undergo a psychiatric examination.  There was a
 noticeable decline in pilot reports during this time interval, and a few
 interpreted this decline to prove that UFO's were either hoaxes or the
 result of unstable personalities.  It is of interest that NICAP (The
 National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena) even today still
 receives reports from commercial pilots who neglect to notify either the
 Air Force or their own airline.

     There are a number of cases which indicate that not all reports fall
 in the hoax category.  We will examine one such case now.  It is the
 Socorro, New Mexico sighting made by police Sergeant Lonnie Zamora.
 Sergeant Zamora was patrolling the streets of Socorro on 24 April 1964
 when he saw a shiny object drift down into an area of gullies on the edge
 of town.  He also heard a loud roaring noise which sounded as if an old
 dynamite shed located out that way had exploded.  He immediately radioed
 police headquarters, and drove out toward the shed.  Zamora was forced to
 stop about 150 yards away from a deep gully in which there appeared to be
 an overturned car.  He radioed that he was investigating a possible wreck,
 and then worked his car up onto the mesa and over toward the edge of the
 gully.  He parked short, and when he walked the final few feet to the edge,
 he was amazed to see that it was not a car but instead was a weird
 eggshaped object about fifteen feet long, white in color and resting on
 short, metal legs.  Beside it, unaware of his presence were two humanoids
 dressed in silvery coveralls.  They seemed to be working on a portion of
 the underside of the object.  Zamora was still standing there, surprised,
 when they suddenly noticed him and dove out of sight around the object.
 Zamora also headed the other way, back toward his car.  He glanced back at
 the object just as a bright blue flame shot down from the underside.
 Within seconds the eggshaped thing rose out of the gully with "an ear-
 -splitting roar."  The object was out of sight over the nearby mountains
 almost immediately, and Sergeant Zamora was moving the opposite direction
 almost as fast when he met Sergeant Sam Chavez who was responding to Zamora'
s
 earlier radio calls.  Together they investigated the gully and found the
 bushes charred and still smoking where the blue flame had jetted down on
 them.  About the charred area were four deep marks where the metal legs
 had been.  Each mark was three and one half inches deep, and was circular
 in shape.  The sand in the gully was very hard packed so no sign of the
 humanoids' footprints could be found.  An official investigation was
 launched that same day, and all data obtained supported the stories of
 Zamora and Chavez.  It is rather difficult to label this episode a hoax,
 and it is also doubtful that both Zamora and Chavez shared portions of the
 same hallucination.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                 PAGE SEVEN
________________________________________________________________

 Secret Weapons

     A few individuals have proposed that UFO's are actually advanced weapon
 systems, and that their natures must not be revealed.  Very few people
 accept this as a credible suggestion.

 Natural Phenomena

     It has also been suggested that at least some, and possibly all, of the
 UFO cases were just mis-interpreted manifestations of natural phenomena.
 Undoubtedly this suggestion has some merit.  People have reported, as UFO's,
 objects which were conclusively proven to be balloons (weather and skyhook),
 the planet Venus, man-made artificial satellites, normal aircraft, unusual
 cloud formations, and lights from ceilometers (equipment projecting light
 beams on cloud bases to determine the height of the aircraft visual ceiling)
.
 It is also suspected that people have reported mirages, optical illusions,
 swamp gas and ball lightning (a poorly-understood discharge of electrical
 energy in a spheroidal or ellipsoidal shape...some charges have lasted for
 up to fifteen minutes but the ball is usually no bigger than a large orange.
)
 But it is difficult to tell a swamp dweller that the strange, fast-moving
 light he saw in the sky was swamp gas; and it is just as difficult to tell
 a farmer that a bright UFO in the sky is the same ball lightning that he
 has seen rolling along his fence wires in dry weather.  Thus accidental
 mis-identification of what might well be natural phenomena breeds mistrust
 and disbelief; it leads to the hasty conclusion that the truth is
 deliberatly not being told.  One last suggestion of interest has been made,
 that the UFO's were plasmoids from space...concentrated blobs of solar wind
 that succeeded in reaching the surface of the Earth.  Somehow this last
 suggestion does not seem to be very plausible; perhaps because it ignores
 such things as penetration of Earth's magnetic field.

 Alien Visitors

     The most stimulating theory for us is that the UFO's are material
 objects which are either "Manned" or remote-controlled by beings who are
 alien to this planet.  There is some evidence supporting this viewpoint.
 In addition to police Sergeant Lonnie Zamora's experience, let us consider
 the case of Barney and Betty Hill.  On a trip through New England they
 lost two hours on the night of 19 September 1961 without even realizing it.
 However, after that night both Barney and Betty began developing
 psychological problems which eventually grew sufficienty severe that they
 submitted themselves to psychiatric examination and treatment.  During the
 course of treatment hypnotherapy was used, and it yielded remarkably
 detailed and similar stories from both Barney and Betty.  Essentially
 they had been hypnotically kidnapped, taken aboard a UFO, submitted to
 two-hour physicals, and released with posthypnotic suggestions to forget
 the entire incident.  The evidence is rather strong that this is what the
 Hills, even in their subconscious, believe happened to them.  And it is of
 particular importance that after the "posthypnotic block" was removed, both
 of the Hills ceased having their psychological problems.

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                PAGE EIGHT
________________________________________________________________

     The Hill's description of the aliens was similar to descriptions
 provided in other cases, but this particular type of alien appears to be
 in the minority.  The most commonly described alien is about three and one-
 half feet tall, has a round head (helmet?), arms reaching to or below his
 knees, and is wearing a silvery space suit or coveralls.  Other aliens
 appear to be essentially the same as Earthmen, while still others have
 particularily wide (wrap around) eyes and mouths with very thin lips.  And
 there is a rare group reported as about four feet tall, weight of around
 35 pounds, and covered with thick hair or fur (clothing?).  Members of this
 last group are described as being extremely strong.  If such beings are
 visiting Earth, two questions arise: 1) why haven't there been any accidents
 which have revealed their presence, and 2) why haven't they attempted to
 contact us officially?  The answer to the first question may exist partially
 in Sergeant Lonnie Zamora's experience, and may exist partially in the
 Tunguska meteor discussed in Chapter XXIX.  In that chapter it was suggested
 that the Tonguska meteor was actually a comet which exploded in the
 atmosphere, the ices melted and the dust spread out.  Hence, no debris!
 However, it has also been suggested that the Tunguska meteor was actually
 an alien spacecraft that entered the atmosphere to rapidly, suffered
 mechanical failure, and lost its power supply and/or weapons in a nuclear
 explosion.  While that hypothesis may seem far fetched, sample of tree
 rings from around the world reveal that, immediately after the Tunguska
 meteor explosion, the level of radioactivity in the world rose sharply for
 a short period of time.  It is difficult to find a natural explanation for
 that increase in radioactivity, although the suggestion has been advanced
 that enough of the meteor's great kinetic energy was converted into heat
 (by atmospheric friction) that a fusion reaction occurred.  This still
 leaves us with no answer to the second question: why no contact?  That
 question is very easy to answer in several ways: 1) we may be the object
 of intensive sociological and psychological study.  In such studies you
 usually avoid disturbing the test subjects' environment; 2) you do not
 "contact" a colony of ants, and humans may seem that way to any aliens
 (variation: a zoo is fun to visit, but you don't "contact" the lizards);
 3) such contact may have already taken place secretly; and 4) such contact
 may have already taken place on a different plane of awareness and we are
 not yet sensitive to communications on such a plane.  These are just a few
 of the reasons.  You may add to the list as you desire.

 33.4 HUMAN FEAR AND HOSTILITY

     Besides the foregoing reasons, contacting humans is downright dangerous.
 Think about that for a moment!  On the microscopic level our bodies reject
 and fight (through production antibodies) any alien material; this process
 helps us fight off disease but it also sometimes results in allergic
 reactions to innocuous materials.  On the macroscopic (psychological and
 sociological) level we are antagonistic to beings that are "different".
 For proof of that, just watch how an odd child is treated by other children,
 or how a minority group is socially deprived, or how the Arabs feel about
 the Israelis (Chinese vs Japanese, Turks vs Greeks, etc.)  In case you are
 hesitant to extend that concept to the treatment of aliens let me point
 out that in very ancient times, possible extraterrestrials may have been
 treated as Gods but in the last two thousand years, the evidence is that
 any possible aliens have been ripped apart by mobs, shot and shot at,
 physically assaulted, and in general treated with fear and aggression.

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                  PAGE NINE
________________________________________________________________

     In Ireland about 1,000 A.D., supposed airships were treated as "demon-
 ships."  In Lyons, France, "admitted" space travellers were killed.  More
 recently, on 24 July 1957 Russian anti-aircraft batteries on the Kouril
 Islands opened fire on UFO's.  Although all Soviet anti-aircraft batteries
 on the Islands were in action, no hits were made.  The UFO's were luminous
 and moved very fast.  We too have fired on UFO's.  About ten o'clock one
 morning, a radar site near a fighter base picked up a UFO doing 700 mph.
 The UFO then slowed to 100 mph, and two F-86's were scrambled to intercept.
 Eventually one F-86 closed on the UFO at about 3,000 feet altitude.  The
 UFO began to accelerate away but the pilot still managed to get within 500
 yards of the target for a short period of time.  It was definately saucer-
 shaped.  As the pilot pushed the F-86 at top speed, the UFO began to pull
 away.  When the range reached 1,000 yards, the pilot armed his guns and
 fired in an attempt to down the saucer.  He failed, and the UFO pulled away
 rapidly, vanishing in the distance.  This same basic situation may have
 happened on a more personal level.  On Sunday evening 21 August 1955, eight
 adults and three children were on the Sutton Farm (one-half mile from Kelly,
 Kentucky) when, according to them, one of the children saw a brightly
 glowing UFO settle behind the barn, out of sight from where he stood.
 Other witnesses on nearby farms also saw the object.  However, the Suttons
 dismissed it as a "shooting star," and did not investigate.  Approximately
 thirty minutes later (at 8 p.m.), the family dogs began barking so two of
 the men went to the back door and looked out.  Approximately 50 feet away
 and coming toward them was a creature wearing a glowing silvery suit.  It
 was about three and one-half feet tall with a large round head and very
 long arms.  It had large webbed hands which were equipped with claws.  The
 two Suttons grabbed a twelve guage shotgun and a 22 caliber pistol, and
 fired at close range.  They could hear the pellets and bullet ricochet as
 if off of metal.  The creature was knocked down, but jumped up and
 scrambled away.  The Suttons retreated into the house, turned off all
 inside lights, and turned on the porch-light.  At that moment, one of the
 women who was peeking out of the dining room window discovered that a
 creature with some sort of helmet and wide slit eyes was peeking back at
 her.  She screamed, the men rushed in and started shooting.  The creature
 was knocked backwards but again scrambled away without apparent harm.  More
 shooting occurred (a total of about 50 rounds) over the next 20 minutes and
 the creatures finally left (perhaps feeling unwelcome?)  After about a two
 hour wait (for safety), the Suttons left too.  By the time the police got
 there, the aliens were gone but the Suttons would not move back to the farm.
 They sold it and departed.  This reported incident does bear out the
 contention though that humans are dangerous.  At no time in the story did
 the supposed aliens shoot back, although one is left with the impression
 that the described creatures were having fun scaring humans.

 33.5 ATTEMPTS AT SCIENTIFIC APPROACHES

     In any scientific endeavor, the first step is to aquire data, the
 second step to clasify the data, and the third step to form hypothesis.
 The hypothesis are tested by repeating the entire process, with each cycle
 resulting in an increase in understanding (we hope).  The UFO phenomenon
 does not yield readily to this approach because the data taken so far
 exhibits both excessive variety and vagueness.  The vagueness is caused
 in part by the lack of preparation of the observer...very few people leave
 their house knowing that they are going to see a UFO that evening.
 Photographs are overexposed or underexposed, and rarely in color.  Hardly
 anyone carries around a radiation counter or magnetometer.  And, in addition
 to this, there is a very high level of "noise" in the data.


                                 PAGE TEN
________________________________________________________________

     The noise consists of mistaken reports of known natural phenomena,
 hoaxes, reports by unstable individuals and mistaken removal of data
 regarding possible unnatural or unknown natural phenomena (by overzealous
 individuals who are trying to eliminate all data due to known natural
 phenomena).  In addition, those data, which do appear to be valid, exhibit
 an excessive amount of variety relative to the statistical samples which
 are available.  This has led to very clumsy classification systems, which
 in turn provide quite unfertile ground for formulation of hypothesis.

     One hypothesis which looked promising for a time was that of ORTHOTENY
 (i.e., UFO sightings fall on "great circle" routes).  At first, plots of
 sightings seemed to verify the concept of orthoteny but recent use of
 computers has revealed that even random numbers yield "great circle" plots
 as neatly as do UFO sightings.

     There is one solid advance that has been made though.  Jacques and
 Janine Vallee have taken a particular type of UFO - namely those that are
 lower than tree-top level when sighted - and plotted the UFO's estimated
 diameter versus the estimated distance from the observer.  The result
 yields an average diameter of 5 meters with a very characteristic drop for
 short viewing distances, and rise for long viewing distances.  This
 behavior at the extremes of the curve is well known to astronomers and
 psychologists as the "moon illusion."  The illusion only occurs when the
 object being viewed is a real, physical object.  Because this implies that
 the observers have viewed a real object, it permits us to accept also their
 statement that these particular UFO's had a rotational axis of symmetry.

     Another, less solid, advance made by the Vallee's was their plotting
 of the total number of sightings per week versus the date.  They did this
 for the time span from 1947 to 1962, and then attempted to match the peaks
 of the curve (every 2 years 2 months) to the times of Earth-Mars conjuction
 (every 2 years 1.4 months).  The match was very good between 1950 and 1956
 but was poor outside those limits.  Also, the peaks were not only at the
 times of Earth-Mars conjunction but also roughly at the first harmonic
 (very loosely, every 13 months).  This raises the question why should UFO's
 only visit Earth when Mars is in conjunction and when it is on the opposite
 side of the sun.  Obviously, the conjunction periodicity of Mars is not the
 final answer.  As it happens, there is an interesting possibility to
 consider.  Suppose Jupiter's conjunctions were used; they are every 13.1
 months.  That would satisfy the observed periods nicely, except for every
 even data peak being of different magnitude from every odd data peak.
 Perhaps a combination of Martian, Jovian, and Saturnian (and even other
 planetary) conjunctions will be necessary to match the frequency plot...
 if it can be matched.

     Further data correlation is quite difficult.  There are a large number
 of different saucer shapes but this may mean little.  For example, look at
 the number of different types of aircraft which are in use in the U.S. Air
 Force alone.

     It is obvious that intensive scientific study is needed in this area;
 no such study has yet been undertaken at the necessary levels of intensity
 and support.  One thing that must be guarded against in any such study is
 the trap of implicity assuming that our knowledge of Physics (or any other
 branch of science) is complete.  An example of one such trap is selecting
 a group of physical laws which we now accept as valid, and assume that they
 will never be superceded.



                               PAGE ELEVEN
________________________________________________________________

 Five such laws might be:

   1) Every action must have an opposite and equal reaction.

   2) Every particle in the univers attracts every other particle with a
      force proportional to the product of the masses and inversely as the
      square of the distance.

   3) Energy, mass and momentum are conserved.

   4) No material body can have a speed as great as c, the speed of light
      in free space.

   5) The maximum energy, E, which can be obtained from a body at rest is
      E=mc2, where m is the rest mass of the body.

     Laws numbered 1 and 3 seem fairly safe, but let us hesitate and take
 another look.  Actually, law number 3 is only valid (now) from a relativisti
c
 viewpoint; and for that matter so are laws 4 and 5.  But relativity
 completely revised these physical concepts after 1915, before then Newtonian
 mechanics were supreme.  We should also note that general relativity has
 not yet been verified.  Thus we have the peculiar situation of five laws
 which appear to deny the possibility of intelligent alien control of UFO's,
 yet three of the laws are recent in concept and may not even be valid.
 Also, law number 2 has not yet been tested under conditions of large relativ
e
 speeds or accelerations.  We should not deny the possibility of alien
 control of UFO's on the basis of preconceived notions not established as
 related or relevant to the UFO's.

 33.6 CONCLUSION

     From available information, the UFO phenomenon appears to have been
 global in nature for almost 50,000 years.  The majority of known witnesses
 have been reliable people who have seen easily-explained natural phenomena,
 and there appears to be no overall positive correlation with population
 density.  The entire phenomenon could be psychological in nature but that
 is quite doubtful.  However, psychological factors probably do enter the
 data picture as "noise."  The phenomenon could also be entirely due to
 known and unknown phenomena (with some psychological "noise" added in) but
 that too is questionable in view of some of the available data.

     This leaves us with the unpleasant possibility of alien visitors to
 our planet, or at least of alien controlled UFO's.  However, the data are
 not well correlated, and what questionable data there are suggest the
 existence of at least three and maybe four different groups of aliens
 (possibly at different stages of development).  This too is difficult to
 accept.  It implies the existence of intelligent life on a majority of the
 planets in our solar system, or a surprisingly strong interest in Earth by
 members of other solar systems.

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------


                                PAGE TWELVE
________________________________________________________________

     A solution to the UFO problem may be obtained by the long and diligent
 effort of a large group of well financed and competant scientists,
 unfortunately there is no evidence suggesting that such an effort is going
 to be made.  However, even if such an effort were made, there is no
 guarantee of success because of the isolated and sporatic nature of the
 sightings.  Also, there may be nothing to find, and that would mean a long
 search with no proff at the end.  The best thing to do is to keep an open
 and skeptical mind, and not take an extreme position on any side of the
 question.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 This document is available through the Ufo Info Service.
 For more information write to:

         CUFON C/O UFO INFORMATION SERVICE
         P.O. Box 832
         MERCER ISLAND, WA 98040 - 0219

         OR CALL [phone]

 This is the original Air Force Document.
                                            Thank You


NOTE: Although  obviously well written and comphrensive in its treatment
      of the UFO phenomenon, it is the opinion of ParaNet Pi that this repute
d
      U.S.A.F. Chapter is in fact a cleverly planted hoax, and did not appear
      in any Air Force Training Manual as claimed. However, we do not have
      any hard proof to support this assessment of its authenticity.

      -Tom Mickus  04/24/88




EOF


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the rest of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :^)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Grudge|TLC|CFR|FED|EEC|Bush > WAR = "New World Order"


From lassie!voder!pyramid!decwrl!sdd.hp.com!think.com!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona Mon Apr 15 15:43:13 PDT 1991
Article: 3931 of alt.conspiracy
Path: lassie!voder!pyramid!decwrl!sdd.hp.com!think.com!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INFO: List of UFO Books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Apr 91 03:07:23 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 628
Xref: lassie alt.conspiracy:3931


The following is a good starting list of UFO reading material.

I will post another list in a few days with more specifics.

----------Begin included text--------------------------------

                         UFOLOGY BOOKS (REVISION 2.0 332 books)
                         --------------------------------------

     The following is a collection of titles known to the author
     H. S. Stewart on the  subject of UFO's. The list is alphabetic
     by author with the year of publication given if known. A "?"
     indicates that the exact date of publication is not known but
     that it is at least the date given. An "*" preceeding the title
     indicates that the author owns a copy of that book. A "#" preceeding
     the title indicates that the author of this list has read the book.
     If a book has been co-authored then only the first author listed
     on the cover is given. In fairness the author has not editted this
     list and therefore the books are not all of the same quality.
       HOWEVER since everone has an opininion the books whose author's
     name is preceeded by an "!" are considered by the writer to be
     must read items. If you wish to contact me you can do so via
     Tom Mickus's most excellent board Paranet Pi.


     Bill Adler               *   LETTERS TO THE AIR FORCE ON UFOS  1967

     George Admaski           *   BEHIND THE FLYING SAUCER MYSTERY  1961
                                  (FLYING SAUCERS FAREWELL)
     George Admaski               MANY MANSIONS                    ?1961
     George Admaski               COSMIC PHILOSOPHY                 1961
     George Admaski           *   INSIDE THE FLYING SAUCERS         1955
                                  (INSIDE THE SPACE SHIPS)
     George Admaski           #   FLYING SAUCERS HAVE LANDED        1953
     George Admaski               PIONEERS OF SPACE A TRIP TO THE   1949
                                  MOON MARS AND VENUS

     Gordon W. Allen              OVERLORDS OLYMPIANS AND THE UFO   1974
     Gordon W. Allen              SPACECRAFT FROM BEYOND THREE      1959
                                  DIMENSIONS

     George C. Andrews            EXTRATERRESTRIALS AMONG US       ?1988

     Orfeo Angelucci              THE SECRET OF THE SAUCERS         1955

     Kenneth Arnold               THE COMING OF THE SAUCERS         1952

     John C. Baird             #  THE INNER LIMITS OF OUTER SPACE   1987

     Gray Barker                  GRAY BARKER AT GIANT ROCK         1976
     Gray Barker                  THE SILVER BRIDGE                 1970
     Gray Barker                  THE BOOK OF GEORGE ADAMSKI        1965
     Gray Barker                  THE STRANGE CASE OF DR M K JESSUP 1963
     Gray Barker                  THEY KNEW TOO MUCH ABOUT
                                  FLYING SAUCERS                    1958
     Gray Barker                  THE SUACERIAN REVIEW              1956

     Madelene Barnothy            THE EFFECTS OF MAGNETIC FIELDS    1964

     Bill Barry                   ULTIMATE ENCOUNTER                1978

     John Baxter                  THE FIRE CAME BY - THE RIDDLE OF  1976
                                  THE GREAT SIBERIAN EXPLOSION

     Robert B. Beard              FLYING SAUCERS, UFO'S AND EXTRA
                                  TERESTRIAL LIFE:A BIBLIOGRAPHY
                                  OF BRITISH BOOKS                  1971

     Chessman Beere               USP - PHYSICS FOR FLYING SAUCERS  1973

     Albert Bender                FLYING SAUCERS AND THE THREE MEN  1963
     Albert Bender                SPACE REVIEW                      1962

     Hildegard Bender             KNIGHTS OF THE SOLAR CROSS  -     1968
                                  MESSAGES FROM OUTER SPACE

     Jacques Bergier              ET INTERVENTION - THE EVIDENCE    1974
     Jacques Bergier              ET VISITS FROM PREHISTORY
                                  TO PRESENT                        1970

 !   Charles Berlitz          *   THE ROSWELL INCIDENT              1980
     Charles Berlitz          *   MYSTERIES FROM FORGOTTEN WORLDS   1972
     Charles Berlitz          #   THE MYSTERY OF ATLANTIS           1969

     Raymond Bernard          #   THE HOLLOW EARTH                  1969
     Raymond Bernard              FLYING SAUCERS FROM EARTHS       ?1969
                                  INTERIOR

     Truman Bethurum              THE PEOPLE OF THE PLANET CLARION  1970
     Truman Bethurum              FACING REALITY                    1958
     Truman Bethurum              THE VOICE OF THE PLANET CLARION   1957
     Truman Bethurum              ABOARD A FLYING SAUCER            1954

     Otto Billig                  FLYING SAUCERS: MAGIC IN THE
                                  SKIES: A PSYCHOHISTORY            1982

     Otto Binder                  UNSOLVED MYSTERIES OF THE PAST   ?1974
     Otto Binder                  MANKIND CHILD OF THE STARS        1974
     Otto Binder                  FLYINF SAUCERS ARE WATCHING US    1968
     Otto Binder                  WHAT WE REALLY KNOW ABOUT
                                  FLYING SAUCERS                    1967

     Ted Bloecher                 REPORT ON THE UFO WAVE OF 1947    1967

     Ralph Blum               *   BEYOND EARTH: MANS CONTACT
                                  WITH UFO'S                        1974

     Josef Blumrich           *   THE SPACESHIPS OF EZEKIEL         1974

     Yurko Bondarchuk             UFO SIGHTINGS, LANDINGS
                                  AND ABDUCTIONS                    1979

     Charles Bowen                ENCOUNTER CASES FROM FLYING
                                  SAUCER REVIEW                     1977
     Charles Bowen                UFO ENCOUNTERS (magazine)         1973
     Charles Bowen                UFO'S IN TWO WORLDS (magazine)    1971
     Charles Bowen                BEYOND CONDON                     1969
     Charles Bowen                THE HUMANOIDS - A SURVEY OF       1969
                                  WORLDWIDE REPORTS
     Charles Bowen                UFO PERCIPIENTS (magazine)        1969
     Charles Bowen                THE HUMANOIDS (magazine)          1966

     M. Bowen                     FLYING SAUCERS AND OUTER SPACE    1969

     Don Boys                     FLYING SAUCERS: MYTHS, MADNESS
                                  OR MADE IN MOSCOW                ?1974

     Ronald Bracewell             THE GALACTIC CLUB                 1975

     Eugene Burt                  UFO'S AND DIAMAGNETISM            1970

     Lynn E. Catoe                UFO'S AND RELATED SUBJECTS:
                                  AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY         1969

     Maurice Chatelain        *   OUR ANCESTORS CAME FROM
                                  OUTER SPACE                       1975

     Howard Chambers              UFO"S FOR THE MILLIONS            1967

     Robert Chapman               UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS       1969

     Robert Charroux              LEGACY OF THE GODS                1974
     Robert Charroux              THE GODS UNKNOW                   1974
     Robert Charroux              MASTERS OF THE WORLD              1974
     Robert Charroux              FORGOTTEN WORLDS                  1973
     Robert Charroux              ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND YEARS OF     1971
                                  MANS UNKNOWN HISTORY

     Adrian V. Clark              COSMIC MYSTERIES OF THE UNIVERSE ?1969

     Edward U. Condon             SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF UNIDENTIFIED
                                  FLYING OBJECTS                    1969
     Gordon Cove                  WHO PILOTS THE FLYING SAUCERS    ?1974

     William R. Corliss       *   HANDBOOK OF UNUSUAL NATURAL
                                  PHENOMENA                         1977

     Douglas Curran               IN ADVANCE OF THE LANDING: FOLK
                                  CONCEPTS OF OUTER SPACE           1985

     Reilly H. Crabb              FLYING SUACERS AT EDWARDS AFB    ?1980

     Leonard G. Cramp             SPACE, GRAVITY AND THE
                                  FLYING SAUCER                    ?1967

     Ellen Crystal                INVASION: THEY COME IN SILENCE   ?1988

     David M. Jacob's             THE CONTROVERSY OVER FLYING
                                  OBJECTS IN AMERICA 1869-1973     ?1986

     Jay David                    THE FLYING SAUCER READER          1967

     Isabel Davis                 CLOSE ENCOUNTERS AT KELLY
                                  AND OTHERS OF 1955                1978
     Isabel Davis                 EXTRATERRESTRIALS SUGGESTED
                                  MOTIVES AND ORIGIN                1969

     Erich Von Daniken            VON DANIKENS PROOF                1978
     Erich Von Daniken            MIRACLES OF THE GODS              1976
     Erich Von Daniken            RETURN TO THE STARS              ?1974
     Erich Von Daniken            IN SEARCH OF ANCIENT GODS         1973
     Erich Von Daniken        #   THE GOLD OF THE GODS              1972
     Erich Von Daniken        *   GODS FROM OUTER SPACE             1971
     Erich Von Daniken        *   CHARIOTS OF THE GODS              1970

     L. S. DeCamp             *   THE ANCIENT ENGINEERS             1980

     R. L. Dione              *   GOD DRIVES A FLYING SAUCER        1969

     Barry Downing                THE BIBLE AND FLYING SAUCERS      1968

     Raymond W. Drake             GODS AND SPACEMEN THROUGHOUT
                                  HISTORY                           1975
     Raymond W. Drake             GODS AND SPACEMEN OF THE ANCIENT
                                  WEST                              1974
     Raymond W. Drake             GODS AND SPACEMEN IN ANCIENT EAST 1968

     Ann Druffel                  THE TUJUNGA CANYON CONTACTS       1980

     George Eberhart              UFO'S AND THE EXTRATERESTRIAL     1980
                                  CONTACT MOVEMENT: A BIBLIOGRAPHY  1986
     George Eberhart              A GEO-BIBLIOGRAPHY OF ANOMALIES   1980

     Martin Ebon              #   THE RIDDLE OF THE BERMUDA TRIANGL 1975

     Frank Edwards                FLYING SAUCERS HERE AND NOW       1967
     Frank Edwards            *   FLYING SAUCERS SERIOUS BUSINESS   1966
     Frank Edwards            *   STRANGER THAN SCIENCE             1959
     Frank Edwards            *   STRANGEST OF ALL                  1956

     Robert Emenegger             UFO'S PAST PRESENT & FUTURE       1974

     Walter Ernsting              THE DAY THE GODS DIED             1971

     Hilary Evans                 THE EVIDENCE FOR UFO'S            1983

     Lawrence Fawcett         #   CLEAR INTENT: THE GOVERMENT
                                  COVERUP OF THE UFO EXPERIENCE     1984

     Randall Fitzgerald           THE COMPLETE BOOK OF EXTRA
                                  TERRESTRIAL ENCOUNTYERS           1979

     Parls Flammonde              UFO EXIST                        ?1987

     Charles Fort                 COMPLETE BOOKS OF CHARLES FORT    1974
     Charles Fort                 LO!                               1934

     Raymond E. Fowler            CASEBOOK OF A UFO INVESTIGATOR    1981
     Raymond E. Fowler        #   THE ANDREASSON AFFAIR             1979

     Stanton Friedman             UFO'S TODAY                       1974
     Stanton Friedman             UFO'S MYTH AND MYSTERY            1971
     Stanton Friedman             FLYING SAUCER ENERGETICS          1970

     Daniel Fry                   THE WHITE SANDS INCIDENT          1966

     Curtis Fuller                PROCEEDINGS OF THE FIRST
                                  INTERNATIONAL UFO CONGRESS        1980

     John G. Fuller               ALIENS IN THE SKIES              ?1970
     John G. Fuller           *   THE INTERUPTED JOURNEY            1966
     John G. Fuller           *   INCIDENT AT EXETER                1966

     Judith Gansberg              DIRECT ENCOUNTERS                 1980

     Richard Garvin           #   THE CRYSTAL SKULL                 1973

     Gavin Gibbons                THEY RODE IN SPACESHIPS           1957

     Daniel Gillmor               SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF UFO'S         1969

     Kurt Glemser                 FLYING SAUCERS FROM THE FOURTH    1974
                                  DIMENSION
     Kurt Glemser                 FLYING SAUCERS AND THE INNER      1974
                                  EARTH
     Kurt Glemser                 THE MEN IN BLACK REPORT           1973
     Kurt Glemser                 UFO'S: MENACE FROM THE SKIES      1972
     Kurt Glemser                 THEY WALK AMONG US                1970

     Timothy Good                 GEORGE ADAMSKI THE UNTOLD STORY  ?1988

     Gabriel Green                LETS FACE THE FACTS ABOUT
                                  FLYING SAUCERS                    1967

     Irving Greenfield            THE UFO REPORT                    1967

     Barry Greenwood              CLEAR INTENT                     ?1988

     Richard F. Haines            OBSERVING UFO'S: AN INVESTIGATIVE
                                  HANDBOOK                          1980

     David Haisell            *   THE MISSING SEVEN HOURS           1978
     David Haisell                THE MISSING SEVEN HOURS REVEALED  1978

 !   Richard H. Hall          *   UNINVITED GUESTS                  1988
     Richard H. Hall              THE UFO EVIDENCE                  1964
     Richard H. Hall              CHALLANGE OF UFO'S               ?1966

     W. A. Harbinson          *   THE LIGHT OF EDEN                 1987
     W. A. Harbinson          *   OTHERWORLD                        1984
     W. A. Harbinson              REVELATION                        ????
 !   W. A. Harbinson          *   GENESIS                           1980

     Clive Harold                 THE UNINVITED: A TRUE STORY       1979

     Gerald Heard                 IS ANOTHER WORLD WATCHING         1953

     Allan Hendry                 THE UFO HANDBOOK                  1979

     James Holledge               FLYING SAUCERS OVER AUSTRALIA     1965

     Bud Hopkins              *   MISSING TIME: A DOCUMENTED STUDY
                                  OF UFO ABDUCTIONS                 1981
     Bud Hopkins              *   INTRUDERS: THE INCREDIBLE
                                  VISITATIONS AT COPLEY WOODS       1987
     Bud Hopkins                  INTRUDERS AMONG US               ?1987

 !   Allan J. Hynek           *   THE HYNEK UFO REPORT              1977
     Allan J. Hynek               THE EDGE OF REALITY               1975
     Allan J. Hynek           *   THE UFO EXPERIENCE A SCIENTIFIC
                                  INQUIRY                           1972

     Phil Imbrogno            #   NIGHT SIEGE THE HUDSON VALLEY UFO 1987

     D. Jacobs                    THE UFO CONTROVERCY IN AMERICA    1975

     Trevor James                 THEY LIVE IN THE SKY             ?1967

     M. K. Jessup                 THE EXPANDING CASE FOR UFO'S      1957
     M. K. Jessup             #   THE CASE FOR THE UFO'S            1955
 !   M. K. Jessup                 THE CASE FOR THE UFO'S            1956
                                  (ANOTATED "VARO" EDITION)
     M. K. Jessup                 THE UFO ANNUAL                    1956
     M. K. Jessup                 UFO AND THE BIBLE                 1956

     Carl Jung                    FLYING SAUCERS: A MODERN MYTH
                                  OF THINGS SEEN IN THE SKY         1959

     John A. Keel                 THE MAN WHO INVENTED FLYING
                                  SAUCERS                           1983
     John A. Keel                 THE EIGHTH TOWER                  1975
     John A. Keel                 THE MOTHMAN PROPHECIES            1975
     John A. Keel             *   OUR HAUNTED PLANET                1971
     John A. Keel                 UFO'S OPERATION TROJAN HORSE      1970

     C. F. Keil                   COMMENTARY ON THE OLD TESTAMENT   1966

     Major Donald E. Keyhoe   *   ALIENS FROM SPACE... THE REAL
                                  STORY OF UFO'S                    1973
     Major Donald E. Keyhoe       FLYING SAUCERS TOP SECRET         1960
     Major Donald E. Keyhoe       FLYING SAUCER CONSPIRACY          1955
     Major Donald E. Keyhoe       FLYING SAUCERS FROM OUTER SPACE   1953
     Major Donald E. Keyhoe       FLYING SAUCERS ARE REAL           1950

     K. A. Kichen                 ANCIENT ORIENT AND OLD TESTAMENT  1966

     Gary Kinder              *   LIGHT YEARS                       1987

     Phillip Klass                UFO'S THE PUBLIC DECIEVED         1983
     Phillip Klass                UFO'S EXPLAINED                   1974
     Phillip Klass                UFO'S IDENTIFIED                  1968

     Peter Kolosimo               NOT OF THIS WORLD                 1971

     Dino Kraspedon               MY CONTACT WITH FLYING SAUCERS    1959

     Alan Landsburg           *   THE OUTER SPACE CONNECTION        1975

     George Leonard               SOMEONE ELSE IS ON THE MOON      ?1988

     Brinsley LePoer Trench       SECRET OF THE AGES - UFO's        1975
                                  FROM INSIDE THE EARTH
     Brinsley LePoer Trench       OPERATION EARTH                   1974
     Brinsley LePoer Trench       THE ETERNAL SUBJECT               1973
                                  (THE UFO STORY)
     Brinsley LePoer Trench       FLYING SAUCERS HAVE ARRIVED       1970
     Brinsley LePoer Trench       THE FLYING SAUCER STORY           1970
     Brinsley LePoer Trench       TEMPLE OF THE STARS               1962
                                  (MEN AMONG MANKIND)
     Brinsley LePoer Trench       THE SKY PEOPLE                    1960

     Gordon Lindsay               THE RIDDLE OF THE FLYING SAUCERS  1972
     Gordon Lindsay               THE ANTICHRISTS HAVE COME         1958

     Howard Liss                  UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS       1968

     Robert Loftin                IDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS         1968

     Gordon Lore Jr.              STRANGE EFFECTS FROM UFO'S        1969
     Gordon Lore Jr.              MYSTERIES OF THE SKIES: UFO'S
                                  IN PERSPECTIVE                    1968

     Robert W. Loosley            AN ACCOUNT OF A MEETING WITH
                                  DENIZENS OF ANOTHER WORLD         1971

     Coral Lorenzen               ABDUCTED!                         1977
     Coral Lorenzen               ENCOUNTERS WITH UFO OCCUPANTS     1976
     Coral Lorenzen               UFO'S THE WHOLE STORY             1969
     Coral Lorenzen            *  UFO'S OVER THE AMERICAS           1968
     Coral Lorenzen               FLYING SAUCER OCCUPANTS           1967
     Coral Lorenzen            *  THE FLYING SAUCER HOAX            1966
     Coral Lorenzen              (FLYING SAUCERS: THE STARTLING
                                  EVIDENCE OF THE INVITATION FROM
                                  OUTER SPACE)                      1966

     Duncan Lunan              *  MYSTERIOUS SIGNALS FROM
                                  OUTER SPACE                       1974

     Larry Maddock                THE FLYING SAUCER GAMBIT          1966

     Kenneth c. McCulloch         MANKIND CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY    ?1988

     John Magor                   OUR UFO VISITORS                  1977

     Howard Menger                FROM OUTER SPACE TO YOU           1959

     John Manas                   FLYING SAUCERS ANS SPACEMEN       1962

     Dr. Donald Menzel            THE UFO ENIGMA                    1977
     Dr. Donald Menzel            UFO FACT OR FICTION               1967
     Dr. Donald Menzel            THE WORLD OF FLYING SAUCERS       1963
     Dr. Donald Menzel            FLYING SAUCERS                    1953

     Aime Michel                  FLYING SAUCERS AND THE STRAIGHT
                                  LINE MYSTERY                      1958
     Aime Michel                  THE TRUTH ABOUT FLYING SAUCERS    1956

     John Michell             *   THE FLYING SAUCER VISION          1967

     Helen Mitchell               WE MET THE SPACE PEOPLE          ?1970

     William L. Moore             THE SPITZBERGEN SAUCER CRASH     ?1988
     William L. Moore             CRASHED UFO'S: EVIDENCE IN THE
                                  SEARCH FOR PROOF                 ?1988
     William L. Moore             UFO'S THE MOST HIGHLY CLASSIFIED
                                  SUBJECT                           1986
 !   William L. Moore         *   THE ROSWELL INCIDENT              1980
 !   William L. Moore         *   THE PHILADELPHIA EXPERIMENT       1979

     Jim Moseley                  THE WRIGHT FIELD STORY            1971
     Jim Moseley                  JIM MOSELEY'S BOOK OF SAUCER NEWS 1967

     Israel Norkin                SAUCER DIARY                      1957

     Erich Norman                 GODS AND DEVILS FROM OUTER SPACE  1973
     Erich Norman             *   GODS, DEMONS AND SPACE CHARIOTS   1970

     James E. Oberg               UFO'S AND OUTER SPACE MYSTERIES:

     Thomas Olsen                 THE REFERENCE FOR OUTSTANDING
                                  UFO SIGHTING REPORTS             ?1968

     Ray Palmer                   THE REAL UFO INVASION             1968

     Michael Parry                CHARIOTS OF FIRE                  1974
                                  A SYMPATHETIC SKEPTICS REPORT     1982

     T. B. Pawlicki               HOW TO BUILD A FLYING SAUCER AND
                                  OTHER PROPOSALS IN SPECULATIVE
                                  ENGINEERING                       1981

     Ted Peters                   UFO'S GOD'S CHARIOTS              1977

     Ted Phillips                 PHYSICAL TRACES ASSOCIATED WITH   1975
                                  UFO SIGHTINGS

     Randolfo Raphael Pozos     # THE FACE ON MARS                 ?1980

     UFO Congress                 PROCEEDINGS OF THE FIRST INTER
                                  NATIONAL UFO CONGRESS             1980

     Jenny Randles                SKY CRASH: A COSMIC CONSPIRACY    1984
     Jenny Randles                SCIENCE AND THE UFO'S             1985
     Jenny Randles                UFO REALITY: A CRITICAL LOOK
                                  AT THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE          1983

     Richard M. Rasmussen         THE UFO LITERATURE: A COMPREHEN
                                  SIVE BIBLIOGRAPHY OF WORKS IN
                                  ENGLISH                           1985

     J. Rimmer                    THE EVIDENCE FOR ALIEN ABDUCTIONS 1984

     Edward J. Ruppelt            THE REPORT ON UNIDENTIFIED
                                  FLYING OBJECTS                    1956

     Harley D. Rutledge           PROJECT IDENTIFICATION: THE
                                  FIRST SCIENTIFIC FIELD STUDY
                                  OF THE UFO PHENOMENA              1981

     Margaret Sachs               THE UFO ENCYCLOPEDIA              1980
     Margaret Sachs               CELESTRIAL PASSENGERS: UFO'S
                                  AND SPACE TRAVEL                  1977

     Carl Sagan                   OTHER WORLDS                      1975
     Carl Sagan                   THE COSMIC CONNECTION             1973
     Carl Sagan                   UFO'S A SCIENTIFIC DEBATE         1972
     Carl Sagan                   INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE  1967

     Thierry J. Sagnier       *   THE UFO REPORT                    1983

     Frank Salisbury              THE UTAH UFO DISPLAY              1974

     Ivan Sanderson               UNINVITED VISITORS                1967
     Ivan Sanderson               INVISIBLE RESIDENTS               1970

     David Saunders               UFO's? YES!: WHERE THE CONDON
                                  REPORT WENT WRONG                 1968

     Frank Scully             #   BEHIND THE FLYING SAUCERS         1950

     Jean Sendy               *   THE COMING OF THE GODS            1970
     Jean Sendy               *   THE GODS WHO MADE HEAVEN & EARTH  1969
     Jean Sendy                   THE MOON: OUTPOST OF THE GODS     1968

     Robert Sheaffer              THE UFO VERDICT: EXAMINING
                                  THE EVIDENCE                      1980

     Arthur Shuttlewood           UFO'S KEY TO THE NEW AGE          1971
     Arthur Shuttlewood           WARNING FROM FLYING FRIENDS       1968
     Arthur Shuttlewood       *   THE WARMINSTER MYSTERY            1967

     MS Smith                     THE UFO ENIGMA                    1976
     Warren Smith             #   SECRET OF THE HOLLOW EARTH        1976
     Warren Smith             #   SECRET FORCES OF THE PYRAMIDS     1975

     Garder Soule                 UFO'S AND IFO'S                   1967

     John Spenser             *   PHENOMENON FORTY YEARS OF
                                  FLYING SUACERS                    1988
     John Spencer             #   NO EARTHLY EXPLANATION            1974
     John Spencer                 LIMBO OF THE LOST                 1969

     Gerome Stanton               FLYING SAUCERS HOAX OR REALITY    1966

     Roger Stanway                FLYING SAUCER REPORT - UFO'S
                                  UNIDENTIFIED AND UNDENIABLE       1968

     Fred Steckling               UFO'S WHY ARE THEY HERE?          1969

     Brad Steiger             #   THE FELLOWSHIP                    1988
     Brad Steiger             *   THE UFO ABDUCTORS                 1988
     Brad Steiger                 THE STAR PEOPLE                  ?1988
     Brad Steiger                 REVELATION: THE DIVINE FIRE      ?1988
     Brad Steiger                 WORLDS BEFORE OUR OWN            ?1988
     Brad Steiger             *   ALIEN MEETINGS                    1978
     Brad Steiger                 GODS OF AQUARIOUS                 1976
     Brad Steiger                 PROJECT BLUEBOOK                  1976
     Brad Steiger                 THE NEW UFO BREAKTHROUGH         ?1976
     Brad Steiger             #   MYSTERIES OF TIME AND SPACE       1974
     Brad Steiger                 FLYING SAUCER INVASION - TARGET   1969
                                  EARTH
     Brad Steiger                 ALLENDE LETTERS                   1968
     Brad Steiger                 NEW UFO BREAKTHROUGH              1968
     Brad Steiger                 FLYING SAUCERS ARE HOSTILE        1967
     Brad Steiger                 THE FLYING SAUCER MENACE          1967
     Brad Steiger                 STRANGERS FROM THE SKIES          1966

     William Steinman             UFO CRASH AT AZTEC               ?1988

     Robert Sheaffer              THE UFO VERDICT: EXAMINING
                                  THE EVIDENCE                      1980

     Jack Stonely             *   IS ANYONE OUT THERE               1974

     Ronald Story                 UFO'S AND THE LIMITS OF SCIENCE   1981
     Ronald Story             #   THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF UFO'S         1980
     Ronald Story                 GUARDIANS OF THE UNIVERSE         1980
     Ronald Story                 THE SPACE GODS REVEALED A CLOSE   1976
                                  LOOK AT THE THEORIES OF ERICH
                                  VON DANIKEN

     Frank Stranges               THE STRANGER AT THE PENTAGON      1972
     Frank Stranges               MY FRIEND FROM BEYOND EARTH       1960
     Frank Stranges               FLYING SAUCERAMA                  1959

     Whitley Strieber         #   TRANSFORMATION                    1988
     Whitley Strieber         *   COMMUNION                         1987

     Leonard Stringfield      *   SITUATION RED: UFO SIEGE          1977
     Leonard Stringfield          INSIDE SAUCER POST 3-0 BLUE       1957

     Richard Tambling             FLYING SAUCERS WHERE DO
                                  THEY COME FROM                    1967

     Paul Thomas                  FYING SAUCERS THROUGH THE AGES    1965

     Andrew Tomas             *   WE ARE NOT THE FIRST              1971

     James Trevor                 THEY LIVE IN THE SKY              1958

     Jacques Vallee               CHALLENGE TO SCIENCE:
                                  THE UFO ENIGMA                    1966
     Jacques Vallee               MESSENGERS OF DECEPTION: UFO
                                  CONTACTS AND CULTS                1979
     Jacques Vallee               DIMENSIONS: A  CASEBOOK OF
                                  ALIEN CONTACT                     ????
     Jacques Vallee               THE INVISIBLE COLLEGE            ?1978
     Jacques Vallee           *   ANATOMY OF A PHENOMENON           1965
     Jacques Vallee               UFO'S IN SPACE                    1965
     Jacques Vallee           *   THE UFO ENIGMA: CHALLENGE         1966
                                  TO SCIENCE
     Jacques Vallee               PASSPORT TO MAGONIA               1969

 !   Renato Vesco             *   INTRCEPT / UFO                    1968
                                  (INTERCEPT BUT DONT SHOOT)

     Travis Walton                THE WALTON EXPERIENCE             1978

     David Webb                   YEAR OF THE HUMANOIDS             1974

     David Wheeler                THE LUBBOCK LIGHTS                1977

     Dale White                   IS SOMETHING UP THERE?            1969

     P. J. Wilcox                 THE UFO QUESTION                  1976

     Harold T. Wilkins            FLYING SAUCERS UNCENSORED         1956
     Harold T. Wilkins        *   FLYING SAUCERS ON THE ATTACK      1954
     Harold T. Wilkins            STRANGE MYSTERIES OF TIME
                                  & SPACE                          ?1954

     George Hunt Williamson       OTHER TONGUES, OTHER FLESH       ?1988
     George Hunt Williamson       THE SAUCERS SPEAK                ?1966

     Dr. Clifford Wilson      *   CRASH GO THE CHARIOTS             1972
     Dr. Clifford Wilson      *   THE ALIEN AGENDA                  1974
     Dr. Clifford Wilson          UFO'S & THEIR MISSION IMPOSSIBLE  1974
     Dr. Clifford Wilson          IN THE BEGINNING GOD              1970

     Don Wilson                   OUR MYSTERIOUS SPACESHIP MOON     1975

     T. M. Wright                 THE INTELLIGENT MAN'S GUIDE
                                  TO FLYING SAUCERS                 1968

     Bob Young                    FLYING SAUCERS ARE - BOOK TWO     1959

     Mort Young                   UFO: TOP SECRET                   1967


EOF


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the rest of us.
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Illuminati < MJ-12|Grudge|TLC|CFR|FED|EEC|Bush > WAR = "New World Order"



--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13940 alt.alien.visitors:13314 alt.religion.kibology:6363 alt.religion.kibology:6364
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!by712
From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: What is a Kibo?
Date: 9 Feb 1993 02:20:03 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] (Jim Kasprzak) says:
> Actually, I think it's "Kibology in, Bozocity out".
                                       ^^^^^^^^
Where exactly is Bozocity?  What kind of Bozocitizens live there?  Do they
have public access UNIX?  Are they Allowed on HappyNet?  If Spot goes to
Bozocity and is taken to the Bozoshelter for Bozodogs, and is shoved whining
and trembling into the Stanley Steemer Dog-B-Gone Gas Chamber, will he go to
hell if a Scientologist is the only one there to read last rites?  What are
the last rites in Scientology?  Would a 100 Kiboton bomb dropped on Bozocity
make it postbozotic?  Is Kibo no ordinary bozo?  If not, would we have trouble
extraditing him from Bozocity in the event he was put in Bozocity's jail for
painting the walls with grafitti in 1.2E12 pt Zapf Dingbats?

i am getting agitated

exuse me

mark
Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!aw2s+
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  8 Feb 1993 19:44:11 -0500
From: Andrew Todd Weinstein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Phobos incident
Lines: 15


Is there any updated information on  the Russian sattelite, phobos,
besides that given in the info files in phoenix.oulu.fi
/pub/ufo_and_space_pics
???

What could that cigar shaped object be if it is not a UFO and is the
Russian government covering anything up about this incident??

Also, just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the exact mission  of
the Phobos was to be besides take pictures of Mars and Phobos?? I heard
that it was planning on shooting a laser at the mysterious objects in
the Cydonia
region of Mars to see what material it is made of.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!darwin.sura.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!sector3!geraldw
From: [e-mail] (Gerald Welch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Underground City Number 2.
Date: 8 Feb 1993 21:46:20 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sector3.corp.sun.com

No doubt we should see something about this on National Geographic !

I can hardly wait...but I won't be throwing my popcorn in the
microwave yet.

>Subject: UFO Underground City.
 > In the past I read something about an underground city. Here is how the
>information went; ...A team of archaeologists probing ancient ruins in
>Brazil have discovered an underground city that was inhabited by aliens
>6,000 years ago!


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From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Subject: Bill Cooper
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing Computer Services
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 20:58:51 GMT
Lines: 17

Bill Knell gave a talk Friday night in Seattle and had a bit of
news that some might find interesting...

He claims to have spoken to a neighbor of Bill Cooper (the ex-intel
guy specializing in government conspiracy theories) and was told that
Bill Cooper was murdered in his home on or about 2/3/93.

Can anyone confirm or expose this rumor?

Rick


--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]    |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
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From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 22:22:57 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>What's going on??  I hav'nt seen any thing about the UM program last night.

Well, the UFO guy that spoke in Seattle 2/5 explained they got the UM
story wrong.  He claims that he was the one (He = Bill Knell) has the
original video taken by a farmer.  Supposedly, the story is a bit different
than the one told on tv.  Bill indicated that the video was 'stolen' from
him and given to UM.  He didn't give any details, though.  He showed the
video there and it didn't have any sound, either.

Rick


--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]    |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 03:21:46 GMT
Lines: 42

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Randolph) writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes...
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey) writes:
>>>  Danny:
>>>

>>  I've talked with lots of enthusiastic people who claim to have
>>  talked with God; there's probably far more of them in the US
>>  than UFO-believers.  But somehow in the absence of physical
>>  evidence I find such conversations . . . uh . . . less than
>>  compelling.
>
>Yah, me too. I saw Boston Garden full of them one time. Part of the so-called
>charismatic church movement is something called "receiving the Holy Spirit" or
>"baptism with the Holy Spirit" or other words to that effect. Trying to pin
>down the details of this experience was like pushing a rope. I came to believe
>that there were no details to pin down, though I may well be wrong.
>
>Many UFO incidents are alot like this. Some, like Roswell, reveal more and more
>detail as folks dig deeper. I keep an eye on the latter, and generally dismiss
>the former.
>
>-Tom R.   [e-mail]




Such short sighted philosophy and belief systems are a sad thing.

You guys should try reading Cosmic Consciousness by Richard Bucke,M.D.
It details the illumination of the mind in the latter half of adult
hood, and the great fountain of creativity that can come with it.

At this point, you become cognative of the divine essance that
dwells within and of you. At this level, it is possible to create
and understand great bodies of knowledge that are part of the human
collective consciousness. These are the secrets of the mystery schools.

The sad part is that not everyone develops this ability with age...

Jeff-
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 04:36:14 GMT
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  Rick:

  Just a note here I have talked to Bill Knell and saw his program. I have
 been in conversation with others in the UFO field that do not put a Lot of
 stock in what he says.  Their has been some statments that the tapes he sells
 at his Programs where videos that where taken from others.

  Now please don't get me wrong I can not say this has happen this is what
 has been told to me. Like I said I have talked with Bill in the past and I
 Like the guy he seems like he knows what he wants out of the field. But I do
 think a note of caution is needed also. As you and others may know The UFO
 Field has a wide range of people involved with it.

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From: [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 04:49:38 GMT
Lines: 6

 Charles:

  This is true I just got done reading the journal I am a member of MUFON.
 Gulf Breeze case will go on for some time.  I tend to look at things as to
 what they are I keep an open mind.  It is needed in this field!!

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Explanation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  8 Feb 93 18:57:57 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Thinkers: I believe you will find US means us in the U.S.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 06:36:37 GMT
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew) writes:
>                                           (he claims Ed
>          told him all about the hoaxing.  Why Ed would
>          kibosh his own hoax by telling a local teenager
                  ^^^^^^
>          is a little unclear, but that's what Tommy says):

There is only one explanation for the presence of mysterious kiboshes.
I'm sorry to say I was a bad influence.

                        -- K.
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From: [e-mail] (Roy M. Silvernail)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: What is a Kibo?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 21:19:17 CST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Villa CyberSpace, Minneapolis, MN
X-Newsreader: rusnews v0.99
Lines: 10

[e-mail] writes:

>  Actually, I think it's "Kibology in, Bozocity out".
                                        ^^^^^^^^
Chicago, right?
--
Roy M. Silvernail --  [e-mail]
  perl -e '$x = 1/20; print "Just my \$$x! (adjusted for inflation)\n"'
        "What do you mean, you've never been to Alpha Centauri?"
                                               -- Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz
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From: [e-mail] (deRivas, Luis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Alternative 3 - Mars NASA tapes
Date: 9 Feb 1993 04:24 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu
Keywords: alternative, mars
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

    I've heard that there was a T.V. program in England circa '76-'79 that
explored the dissapeareces of many scientists world wide, and came up with
a NASA tape that, supposedly genuine and could only be played with NASA
equipment, showed that Mars could indeed support life and was a joint
American/Soviet project. The tape was "supposedly" telemetry from a mission
in 1962, and kept secret for ulterior motives.
    Anybody seen this show? I think the network was called Septer or
Sceptre TV, and was NOT show in the U.S. Anybody have it on tape somewhere?
Anybody know anything about this NASA Mars radio telemetry?
    Bill Cooper stated that he knew that 70% of the info in this show
(book?) was true.
    Also, the latest international Best-Seller - The Doomsday Conspiracy
which I recently finished, loosely resembles what I understand about
Alternative #3. The book also lists 20+ STAR WARS researchers that have died
(ie:mostly weird suicides) or disappeared mysteriously in the past decade.
    Has anyone checked the current status of Bill Cooper? Somebody on the
net says he may have been murdered 5 days ago: 2/3/93. If true, there are far
too many convenient coincidences about..

Luis

Trailer compressed ->^&JJD&*&&@I@NHJKHD(*^%&*@@KJE&^&#!!!

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From: [e-mail] (G T Clark)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 93 11:28:08 GMT
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I saw a TV programme a while ago where an expert on fires (ex-fire
brigade,I think) was saying why,in his opinion,events like this look so
strange. Basically,what it came down to was that these fires are in
confined spaces,while most of the fires people see are functionally in
free space-they have plenty of ventilation.Because you don't often see
that kind of fire (although film of them from experiments exists) the
aftermath looks very strange.
    According to the programme, the fact that the fire is in a
nearly-sealed chamber means that 1) the heat builds up and 2) there's
little oxygen,so things actually burn very slowly.He insisted from his
experience of looking at the results of many fires (in houses and
elsewhere) that this was entirely normal for an enclosed fire.
    And apart from the fact that it was on the BBC,no I can't tell
you what it was called.Sorry.


            G.
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From: [e-mail] (G T Clark)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: SHC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 93 11:33:28 GMT
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Sender: [e-mail]
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    There was actually a small experiment on the programme I
mentioned, where they took a leg of lamb ,wrapped it in cloth and stuck
one end in the flame of a bunsen burner.All the fat,muscle,tendo etc.
was burned away,just leaving the bone.They said they'd have liked to do
it properly and do it a small sealed box to get the ambient temperature
up, but for resona involving (I think) time and budget,they couldn't.

        G.
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From: [e-mail](Bruce Henderson)
Subject: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Pages Software Inc.
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 18:54:18 GMT
Lines: 12

Well, I am disgusted.

I think that [e-mail] deserves his free speech.  So is
there any support to build a new newsgroup that is specifically for UFO related
stuff.  Enough of the New Age information.  Any suggestions?  I have a sincere
interest in UFO research, but [e-mail] as effectively
squelched the exchange of information in this group.

So I suggest that we let John continue to play here, and we can just move the
serious UFO discussion elsewhere.  Let me know what you think.

Bruce
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: Re: Alternative 3 - Mars NASA tapes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: alternative, mars
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 13:37:51 GMT
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (deRivas, Luis) writes:
>     I've heard that there was a T.V. program in England circa '76-'79 that
> explored the dissapeareces of many scientists world wide, and came up with
> a NASA tape that, supposedly genuine and could only be played with NASA
> equipment, showed that Mars could indeed support life and was a joint
> American/Soviet project. The tape was "supposedly" telemetry from a mission
> in 1962, and kept secret for ulterior motives.

Alternative 3 is a HOAX.

If you watch Alternative 3 through to the very end, I believe the credits
start with :

    First Shown
    Anglia TV
    1st April 1977

In the UK many TV programmes and newspapers try out hoaxes. We call 1st April
'April Fools Day'. I thought they did the same in the USA and almost certainly
Canada and Australia. It is a day when everybody tries out practical jokes.

A number of the actors involved in Alternative 3 have been involved in widely
distributed TV shows. I have visited the USA twice to attend UFO conferences
and am amazed how many people still accept Alternative 3 as true.


>     Has anyone checked the current status of Bill Cooper? Somebody on the
> net says he may have been murdered 5 days ago: 2/3/93.
>
> Luis
>
I too would be interested in news of Bill

Steve.

--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: SHC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 93 14:02:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Edinburgh University
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (G T Clark) writes:

>    There was actually a small experiment on the programme I
>mentioned, where they took a leg of lamb ,wrapped it in cloth and stuck
>one end in the flame of a bunsen burner.All the fat,muscle,tendo etc.
>was burned away,just leaving the bone.They said they'd have liked to do
>it properly and do it a small sealed box to get the ambient temperature
>up, but for resona involving (I think) time and budget,they couldn't.

Fascinating. I saw a program just like this, except that in the one I
saw, the experimenters didn't actually get it to light. They
complained about the difficulties of doing experiments on TV, and
explained that if they had been able to shut it up properly in a box
etc. that it would have burned all away down to the bone, etc.. I
watched the program very carefully out of special interest, and
noticed that what was demonstrated was a failure to burn, but the
programme passed over this very quickly and proceeded to discuss what
should have happened in great detail. This left my wife, who also
watched the program, but not carefully, with the impression that the
program had actually shown the meat burning away, but that she had
simply not seen that bit because she had been talking to someone.

So, did you actually _see_ the leg of lamb burn up? Or did you simply
hear them talking _as though_ it had?

--
Chris Malcolm    [e-mail]          [phone]
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 14:31:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>  I've talked with lots of enthusiastic people who claim to have
>>  talked with God; there's probably far more of them in the US
>>  than UFO-believers.  But somehow in the absence of physical
>>  evidence I find such conversations . . . uh . . . less than
>>  compelling.
>
>Well then, following from statistics I heard once on CBS news, you think
>that more that 50% of the people in the US talk to God.  (according to
>the report, more than 50% of people in the US believe UFO's do exist).

   Don't they teach college kids these days how to construct
   valid analogies?

   My comments were in response to another poster saying that he
   believed in UFO's because he had talked to a number of people
   who had actually encountered them (chiefly, as I understand it,
   by seeing them).   While it may be true that most Americans
   believe in UFO's it's doubtful tha most of them have seen one.
   So to construct a valid analogy you have to either compare the
   number of Americans who *believe in* God to the number of
   Americans who *"believe in"* UFO's   _or_  the number of
   people who've *encountered* God (claimed to have talked with
   God, seen angels, etc) to the number of people who've
   *encountered* UFO's (claimed to have seen a flying saucer, been
   abducted, etc).


---peter






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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 14:37:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey) writes:
> Charles:
>
>  This is true I just got done reading the journal I am a member of MUFON.
> Gulf Breeze case will go on for some time.  I tend to look at things as to
> what they are I keep an open mind.

  I know this is a cliche . . . but it's possible to have such an
  open mind that your brains fall out.


>  It is needed in this field!!

  This implies that this field is somehow "different" in terms
  of standards of evidence compared to other fields.  Why should
  it be?


---peter



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From: [e-mail] (Charlie Hattendorf)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Tesla
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Feb 93 15:44:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Lines: 18


    An interesting reference on Tesla is Margaret Cheney's "Tesla:
Man out of Time". It's not technical, but recounts experiences attributed
to him, namely: demonstrating a radio-controlled submersible model to
the sec'y of the Navy in the late 1800's, causing an "earthquake" in
New York by a simple mechanical oscillator attached to a structural beam
in his lab, his conflict with Edison and Marconi and his invention of
ac motors, etc. He is portrayed as not being believed by his peers, and
having to resort to spectacular demonstrations to obtain funding. Prob-
bably he was a showman and enjoyed lighting fluorescent fixtures without
wires at the world's fair!
    Len ,(sorry I don't have the last name) posted "A Review of zero
point energy and free energy Theory ..." on a.a.v. with a good reference
list on Tesla recently, for those really interested....Thanks Len!
Charlie
[e-mail]
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
                            A.C. Clarke
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Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 11:20:46 CST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: [e-mail]
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

I second the motion.
Ethan Haslett
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Russell)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 93 16:09:57 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey) writes:
> Charles:
>
>  This is true I just got done reading the journal I am a member of MUFON.
> Gulf Breeze case will go on for some time.  I tend to look at things as to
> what they are I keep an open mind.  It is needed in this field!!
>

What exactly is the Gulf Breeze case?  Is this Gulf Breeze Fla?

Regards, Ed.

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From: [e-mail] (Mike Harris)
Subject:  Sightings in Ojai, CA
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Administration)
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    I'm interested in hearing of any sightings in Ojai California.
    I've heard the area has a high level of spiritual vibrations.

    regards, Mike
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From: [e-mail] (Chuck Kuczaj)
Subject: Network Performance Measurement?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 17:56:51 GMT
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What is the best way to measure a remote machine's ability
to read network traffic, both in terms of number of packages
received and in bytes per second?

I have learned that ping is a good way to measure network
latency.  I have also heard of two other means:  spray (in
conjunction with rpc.sprayd) and traffic (in conjunction with
rpc.etherd) of possibly monitoring network traffic.

I am currently implementing UDP (datagram) for send/receive
messages, and understand what measurements performed using
the above tools won't exactly match the actual performance
using UDP.  I am just looking for some "ballpark" data.

Can either spray or traffic help me, or is there a better means
out there?

Thanks.

-Chuck Kuczaj
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Segey U.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ed Carp) writes:
|> [e-mail] wrote:
|>
|> : Dear One and All: Welcome to the noble people of Russia. I am presently
|> : making contact with a 38 year old man in Russia who is on the
|> : Physic-Technical Faculty of a University. He is interested in knowing
|> : things about ESP in the West.
|>
|> Bullshit.  Everyone knows that folks in Russia are *far* ahead of us in
|> research into ESP.

You are falling behind pop internatial relations.  The Russians aren't
super-competant threatening enemies any more.  They are disorganized
but good hearted friends who look to "us" for help in all areas of
life.

Try to keep up with the mythology.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
Date: 9 Feb 1993 13:37:03 -0600
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
:In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman) writes:
:>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
:>>  I've talked with lots of enthusiastic people who claim to have
:>>  talked with God; there's probably far more of them in the US
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:>>  than UFO-believers.  But somehow in the absence of physical
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:>>  evidence I find such conversations . . . uh . . . less than
:>>  compelling.
>>
>>Well then, following from statistics I heard once on CBS news, you think
>>that more that 50% of the people in the US talk to God.  (according to
>>the report, more than 50% of people in the US believe UFO's do exist).
>
>   Don't they teach college kids these days how to construct
>   valid analogies?

I return your argument to you, with you comments appropriately
underscored.  You were the one comparing UFO *Believers* to those who
claim they talk to God.

>   My comments were in response to another poster saying that he
>   believed in UFO's because he had talked to a number of people
>   who had actually encountered them (chiefly, as I understand it,
>   by seeing them).   While it may be true that most Americans
>   believe in UFO's it's doubtful tha most of them have seen one.
>   So to construct a valid analogy you have to either compare the
>   number of Americans who *believe in* God to the number of
>   Americans who *"believe in"* UFO's   _or_  the number of
>   people who've *encountered* God (claimed to have talked with
>   God, seen angels, etc) to the number of people who've
>   *encountered* UFO's (claimed to have seen a flying saucer, been
>   abducted, etc).

Refer to my arguments above, as your phrasing was what lead to my
response.  However, I believe there are more people who claim to have seen
objects they can't identify (UFO - not necessarily alien spacecraft, but
definitely something they have never seen before) than those who claim
to had conversations with God.  I know of no-one in the latter category,
but some in the former (and no, I have never been to any organization
that has any relation to UFO searches, abuctees, etc., nor do I belong
to any such organizations, or subscribe to newsletter, or anything of
the sort.  This newsgroup is the closed I have ever come to anything
like that, and I am not counting anyone in it among the peopel I know
who fit into either of the above catagories).

>---peter

    Thanks
    Robert Fentiman

Potential Physics/CS Major
InterNet: [e-mail]
At: University of Minnesota, Duluth


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From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Subject: The U/M Guardian case: FACTS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: The real info on the Carp/Guardian case
Keywords: Canada, Carp, Area 51, Guardian, video
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: ccu.umanitoba.ca
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 18:23:13 GMT
Lines: 54

Okay, guys.  Here's the REAL info about the Guardian case.

A few years ago, several UFO researchers including myself received a
package of info from an anonymous sender.  Included were several
supposedly authentic documents, map and diagrams concerning a crashed
saucer near Carp, Ontario, which is near Ottawa.  The documents alleged
that both the Canadian and US military covered up the crash, which
included recovery of alien bodies, saucer, etc.

Investigations by Clive Nadin, Christian Page, Leonard Stringfield and
myself showed that this was in all likelihood a hoax, and a pretty poor
one at that.

The docs were badly contrived amateur jobs with numerous spelling
mistakes.  In one long, tedious section, the docs warned mankind about
a threat by Red China to Jews and how the White Brotherhood was working
somehow to keep the military in line, etc. etc. etc.

Clive and another researcher went to the site indicated on the map and
found NO indication of anything.  Local residents knew nothing about
the movements of "heavy equipment" (as the docs alleged) and there had
been only a few minor NL sightings during the past number of years.

Later, blurry Polaroid photos were received by several researchers.
These showed nothing but patches of colour, and were accompanied by
more ramblings about the White Brotherhood.

I notified the RCMP about the packages.  It was determined that the
sender mailed the items from somewhere in Ottawa/Hull, specifically the
downtown Ottawa post office.  The RCMP were interested in the items
because of their similarity to hate literature.

The video came later.  Oeschler was only one of several people to get
it.  He obviously thinks it's real.

Okay, the video LOOKS good, and he somehow found a witness (whose story
matches exactly [!!!!] the video image) who saw something during the
year in about the same area.  But putting it into the context of all
the other stuff, the case looks very, very bad.

Now, of course, if someone fingers the Guardian, then the UM segment
will have been worthwhile.  But as a UFO case, forget it!

The docs have been reprinted in a few ufozines, including the SGJ and
(I think) the Cambridge UFO newsletter.  Len Stringfield has copies,
and so does Christian Page.  They both have written about the case as
an obvious hoax.

Next.

--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
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From: [e-mail] (Danny Smith)
Subject: Is Bill Cooper Dead or what?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 21:59:13 GMT
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Subject says it all. Is he dead?

Also, what has become of the MJ-12 theory over the years?
Is this still a widely circulated belief in the community.
I got some stuff written by Cooper a while back from some
BBS and it was bizzare yet somewhat convincing. He tied
UFOs and MJ-12 to Kennedy's assassination and a lot of things.
Anyway, what are some of the opinions of poeple in this group
about Cooper. Is it true that he was in the Navy and also trained
Secret Service agents at one time?

Dan Smith


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From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Subject: Re: North Pole City.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System PRIVILEGED Account)
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 22:44:03 GMT
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[e-mail] writes:

>Subject: North Pole City Under Ice Cap.
[etc, etc]
>Source of Information: WEEKLY WORLD NEWS, Oct. 27, 1992.
>J.W. So there you have it folks, yet another city. When will it all end?
>John Winston.

I like that. That is one example of the worth of John Winston's
contribution to this group (where has the bevy of John Winston
wannabe burners buggered off to, by the way?). In this particular
instance, it saves me buying the Weekly World News (yes, we
do get the Weekly World News in the dark jungles of Antipodean
Australia, but at a rather inflated price). I share the
good Dr Trygve Daaland's amazement, for there is no land
mass beneath the ice of the north pole. Let us hear more about
the building materials this city is made of then. John, you
must contact Dr Trygve Daaland. My own theory is that those
people came from Micronesia, when some islands are covered
in megalithic buildings. (Tongue firmly in my cheek in the
first half of that last sentence, and firmly out in the
second half). Tell us more!

>
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From: [e-mail] (Service HelpDesk)
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This is a test
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From: [e-mail] (Robyn McNamara)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: North Pole City.
Date: 9 Feb 1993 23:55:29 GMT
Organization: Zikzak Public Access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
Lines: 11
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zikzak.apana.org.au

I hate to rain on your parade, but there's no land mass under the
North polar ice.  (well, there's Greenland and Northern Siberia, but
they don't extend as far as the Pole.)  There is no Northern equivalent
to Antarctica.

Unless this city was built on pontoons?

--
Robyn A. McNamara                                           The Cosmic Froggy
                          [e-mail]
"...blankets and bedclothes, the child of the mountain..." - Simon & Garfunkel
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Abduction Stats
Date: 10 Feb 1993 00:33:23 GMT
Organization: werple public-access unix, Melbourne
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Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) says:
>What percentage of abductees/experiencers are physically
>challenged/handicapped?
Sorry, don't have an answer for that. But......

>You would think that physically challenged/handicapped  would put up less
>of a fight to the captors/abductors & make easier prey.

Assuming that ET abductors use mind controll on their victims, then anyone
would be putty in their hands.

Also if these are abducting people for genetic purposes, then I assume they
would avoid people with genetic handicaps.

One statistic I am interested in is: I heard {relevant magazines, net-for you
flamers} that ETs' don'tlike people contaminated with drugs, ie caffine, nicotene,
etc. So does anybody have any figures here?

Cheers
Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Bytof)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: attempted abduction observations
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 19:53:52 GMT
Organization: sio
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lutherlab.ucsd.edu

I would like to know about all the cases where a repeat abductee
tried to record the event of an anticipated abduction on video,
tape recorder, etc.

I would also like to know about cases where abductions have been
witnessed by other abductees and non-abductees.

thanks,
Jeff Bytof
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Bytof)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alternative 3 - Mars NASA tapes
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 20:44:01 GMT
Organization: sio
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Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lutherlab.ucsd.edu
Keywords: alternative, mars

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (deRivas, Luis) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (deRivas, Luis)

>        I've heard that there was a T.V. program in England circa '76-'79 that
>explored the dissapeareces of many scientists world wide, and came up with
>a NASA tape that, supposedly genuine and could only be played with NASA
>equipment, showed that Mars could indeed support life and was a joint
>American/Soviet project. The tape was "supposedly" telemetry from a mission
>in 1962, and kept secret for ulterior motives.

I recall that observations of Mars in the early 60's tended to overestimate
the water vapor content of the atmosphere.  There were also statements
being made by astronomers that chlorophyll had been detected on Mars.
Unfortunately, observations from
Mariners 4, 6&7, 9, Viking 1&2 and the Phobos spacecrafts
confirmed that these early views of conditions on the surface of Mars
were in error.

-Jeff Bytof
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From: [e-mail] (Wayne Long)
Subject: Re: Explanation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin, Texas
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 23:03:40 GMT
Lines: 11

[e-mail] writes:

>Dear Thinkers: I believe you will find US means us in the U.S.
>John Winston.

Deep.  Very Deep.  (Boots on!  Shields up!)
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Wayne Long                      Internet: [e-mail]
6501 William Cannon Drive West  UUCP: cs.texas.edu!oakhill!risc!wcl
Austin, Texas 78735-8598        Phone [phone]  FAX: [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Wayne Long)
Subject: Re: North Pole City.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin, Texas
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1993 23:07:10 GMT
Lines: 26

[e-mail] (Tom Randolph) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>>Subject: North Pole City Under Ice Cap.
>>Source of Information: WEEKLY WORLD NEWS, Oct. 27, 1992.
>>John Winston.

>John, you disappoint me. Still posting from tabloids. After we asked you not
>to. After we told you they make the stories up, to sell papers. After we
>informed you of the disclaimers they publish in every paper. After I posted
>that I would have no other choice but to believe you a disinformation agent if
>you continued to do this.

>So you are a disinformation agent then?

>John Winston, welcome to my kill file. I've never had one before, but I refuse
>to be propagandized by you.

>-Tom R.   [e-mail]

Yes, I've got to agree with this.  Please hold off on the scandal sheets please.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Wayne Long                      Internet: [e-mail]
6501 William Cannon Drive West  UUCP: cs.texas.edu!oakhill!risc!wcl
Austin, Texas 78735-8598        Phone [phone]  FAX: [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Paranormal
Date: 10 Feb 1993 01:12:48 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 61
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (M.D. O'Leary) writes:
=In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
=>This appeal to intuition is unfounded and leads you to an incorrect.
=>The explanation of burning body fat was proposed for cases that had
=>very similar characteristics:
=>  -the victim was likely to have lost consciousness, on a rug or
=>   chair that could catch fire and burn hot enough to start 'melting'
=>   the body
=
=yup. So there was this great, hot fire, and the body was damaged too. Amazing.

No, so there was this SMALL hot fire.

=>  -the fire burned for many hours undiscovered, giving LOTS of time
=>   to burn the body entirely
=
=Hrmmm.
=
=>  -in many cases there was EXTENSIVE damage to the room, indicating
=>   a very hot and destructive fire.
=
=The whole *point* of SHC is that the *body* burns and the rest of the place
=(even clothes, shoes etc) don't! You are saying above that in an 'extensive'
=house fire, the body got burned up too. Wow. Gosh. Amazing.

Can you cite references to cases in which the body burned but the clothing
didn't?

=>In these conditions, the fat will indeed ignite and burn hot enough
=>to destroy the whole body.
=
=agreed. For proof, visit your local crematorium. Try not to upset the
=relatives, though. Now, I'd be impressed if you came back and said "the coffin
=was reduced to ashes, but the gas jets didnt even *singe* the body" - that is
=the analogous case to SHC, *not* a body being burnt in a big fire, which is
=what we'd (?) expect.

The point of cremation is to burn the body quickly.  For that you need lots of
external fuel.  To burn it more slowly, you don't need nearly as much.
=>I know of no evidence of SHC in living people.  You're going
=>to have to document that extraordinary claim.
=
=I do not have the 'ref' with me, but I have read an eyewitness account (or
='victim' account) of a man who felt a sharp pain in the leg, looked down and
=saw a small jet of flame coming from his thigh. He, and passersby, experianced
=some difficulty in putting this falme out...

He should buy a better brand of lighter.

=Who was the Dickens character to SHC'd? SOme old woman, wasnt it?

Let's see, now.  Using fiction to bolster claims about the real world?
Pathetic!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: FAQ
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Feb 93 13:36:51 GMT
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I think it's about time the FAQ was reposted here, don't you think?
--
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Remote Viewing
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  9 Feb 93 06:43:31 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Everyone: I have been asked if would like to be contacted by
a person from Penn State in regard to Remote Viewing. The answer
is yes. We have quite a group there interested in the Far Out.
John Winston
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Andy Hutton)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries ufo
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
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Andy Kurtz ([e-mail]) wrote:
: did anyone catch the ufo segment on U.M. last night?  opinions?
:
I caught the show last week although I didn't tape it. I wish I had,
what started out as a fairly straightforward sighting, seemed by the end
of the segment to become so convoluted I could barely make sense of it.

The most noticable omission I saw was that the so called fingerprint on
the tape label wasn't sent to the FBI for checking.  BTW can anyone tell
me if there is an easy way to convert a 35mm camera to enable it to make
spectroscopic images?  I understand a lot of valuable data could be gathered
if someone made such an analysis of a UFO sighting.

 Well I hope someone gets this message, I haven't had a lot of success posting
follow ups to USENET.

FRANK B.


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From: [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
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  No that is not what I was leading too! The ufo field is a very Unstable
 area do to the Large number of people trying to find answers to questions.
  I agree a Standard is strongly needed in any investagation no matter what
  the topic is. The one thing MUFON does that I like is it makes the
  investagator follow strick rules when involved with any investagation.
  And each state director needs to make sure that these rules are followed.

  Now as for open minded it is needed as I have stated before.  I have been
 involved  in three UFO events during the past 30 years. I will not say they
 where Space Ship because I DO NOT know what they where.  Their for I keep an
 open mind on what I saw I know I saw somthing but what it was I have no Idea.
  This is the reason I am involved in the UFO area to find out. Just because
  it is taged A UFO does not Mean it was a Space Ship from another planet!
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1993 01:48:37 GMT
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From: [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
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  Now if we go back over the past few messages you will see one of the main
 Pit Falls in the UFO Topics.  The point I am trying to drive at here is
 too many people are too fast to fly off the handle with this topic no matter
 where it is at. The facts are somthing is going on Too many people have
 had UFO events over the years to just say it was crack pots.  The thing
 that needs to happen inorder to find the answers to these questions is to
 approch the topic with an open mind.  We as people need to work together
 to arrive at answers. As long as people take pot shots at each other because
 of what they think we will not find the answers that we look for.
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From: [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: The U/M Guardian case: FACTS
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  Chris:

  Thank you for the Information I have heard bits and pices about the case but
 nothing that would put any light on it.  The fact that other items where
 involved such as the letters and Photos tends to make me feel it may be a
 hoax also.

  Could you follow up by letting us know about any other cases that are on
 going with out going into deep detail in the area up their?


  ([e-mail])
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From: [e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Is Bill Cooper Dead or what?
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[e-mail]  writes:
> Subject says it all. Is he dead?
>
> Also, what has become of the MJ-12 theory over the years?
> Is this still a widely circulated belief in the community.
> I got some stuff written by Cooper a while back from some
> BBS and it was bizzare yet somewhat convincing. He tied
> UFOs and MJ-12 to Kennedy's assassination and a lot of things.
> Anyway, what are some of the opinions of poeple in this group
> about Cooper. Is it true that he was in the Navy and also trained
> Secret Service agents at one time?
>
> Dan Smith
>

  Dan:
  I have read a lot of information from Bill cooper also over the years.
 But it has been pointed out to me that he is not totaly truthful with his
 statments.  From what I have read on the person he was never in the military
 or the Secret Service.  Now I will agree some of the stuff he has written
 does make outstanding Reading but that is all it is Good Reading!

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From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Alan Perkins)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing
Date: 10 Feb 1993 02:35:40 GMT
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In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:

>Dear Everyone: I have been asked if would like to be contacted by
>a person from Penn State in regard to Remote Viewing. The answer
>is yes. We have quite a group there interested in the Far Out.
>John Winston
>
What is remote viewing?
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From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Alan Perkins)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Remote Viewing
Date: 10 Feb 1993 02:35:40 GMT
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In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:

>Dear Everyone: I have been asked if would like to be contacted by
>a person from Penn State in regard to Remote Viewing. The answer
>is yes. We have quite a group there interested in the Far Out.
>John Winston
>
What is remote viewing?
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From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Alan Perkins)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Genesis Revisited
Date: 10 Feb 1993 02:41:45 GMT
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Has anyone read this book?  Genesis Revisited.  I thought it was very
interesting.  It shows that alien visitors seem to have been around a long
time.  Another one I read along this line is The Gods of Eden.  I don't
know if these books were very credible or not but they were a great read.

Sherry Perkins
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Government and aliens
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>    Question... Since there are meta-operants around these days (I should know,
>>  I WAS one as a child),
>
>   Oh, OK,  I'll bite . . . what's a "meta operant"?
>
>
> ---peter


Peter:

The only place I have ever encountered the term meta-operant, or operant
is in a series of novels by author Julian May, collectively termed "The
Pleistocene Saga"  (or is that Pliocene?  I can never keep that straight!)
Anyway, the term apparently refers to humans/sentient beings of extrememly
high and trained psychic ability.  The term covers many things, including
telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation, and other psi phenomena.  I have never
seen anyone use the term outside of fiction until now.  BTW, the books are
excellent, you might pick them up some time.

Kellie M-S
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  9 Feb 93 18:53:49 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear People: Sometimes I get the impression you people doubt my
sources of information.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Answers.
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Dear Earthlings: Now to answer a question or two, if I should be so
bold. As far as the Russians are concerned as long as they act like
gentlemen and gentlewomen I will treat them as such. I only give
my opinion as to what shows I think will make a person think.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Dinosaur Lovers.
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Dear Dinosaur Lovers: I must say, you people are too smart for me.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Greg Larson)
Subject: Re: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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The idea of starting a serious moderated group has been discussed
quite a bit.  So far, a leader hasn't stepped forward to get the ball
rolling.  Part of the problem appears that the people who want a new
group don't have the technical ability to start a new newsgroup, while
the people with technical abilities don't have the desire to run a new
newsgroup.  Perhaps by posting this request now and then, we'll catch
the eye of the right person.



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From: [e-mail] (Michael Saleeba [Zik])
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: evidence
Date: 10 Feb 1993 11:06:59 GMT
Organization: Zikzak Public Access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
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[e-mail] (Bill Peterson) writes:

>    2) pilots are the most likely to see UFO's, since they spend
>many hours in the air. There are criminal penalties for discussing
>UFO sightings with the general public.

Not in Australia or in fact in most of the world. Yes, I have big news
for you - there IS a world outside the USA! And in that world the
incidence of UFO sightings by pilots is generally _lower_ than that
reported in the USA. Make of that what you will.

>    4) anyone who tries to come out in the open with a story
>is immediately discredited, called a "kook", etc. Even police officers
>and other credible witnesses can lose their jobs.

The public can perhaps be forgiven for regarding such stories with
skepticism - after all in all the cases that have been publically
resolved so far the people involved _were_ either kooks or con
merchants.

>    5) many sightings are massive in scale : Washington National
>sightings in 1952 for example.

It's all very well to sight an "Unidentified Object". Hell, I've got
an Unidentified Object growing in my sink! I tried to communicate with
it but I had some problems getting a response. I guess I'm not so hot
at linguistics. I'm working on installing a terminal in my sink so I
can give John_-_Winston its email address :-)

But seriously, it doesn't help anyone much to have sighted something
that "they don't know what it is". Failure to identify objects is
common in humankind, aliens or no aliens. When I shake hands with a
Grey I'll be more impressed.

>    6) our current science says that other planets must be extremely
>common. Life should be abundant.

...but potentially very very very widely dispersed around the universe...

So like you say, there _could_ be something out there. It's difficult
to guess how likely that is. It's far far less likely that they're
actually visiting us, and it seems bizarre that after going to all the
trouble to get here they'd run around zapping people on the sly. If
they've got such technology why bother to hide?

I'd _love_ to believe the stories that I see on this newsgroup. But
why is it that they're always so damn hard to verify? Food for
thought.

Another thought - when people want hard enough to believe something
they will begin to make up stories about it. Witness the bible.
Witness a hundred contradictory mythologies worldwide. Psychologists
are agreed that people operate this way. So now guys, all you've got
to do is produce one iota of hard proof and a million guys like me
will do everything we can for alien research. I'm still waiting for
that iota.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|    [e-mail]                    Michael Saleeba            |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "free thinkers" are those who reject the unproven precepts of religion.  |
| Interestingly a rejection of the unproven precepts of politics is known  |
| as "anarchy" and rejected in the same way as "free thinking" once was.   |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
NOT a skeptic. NOT a knocker. Just a free-thinker with a little hope.
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From: [e-mail] (G T Clark)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: SHC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Feb 93 15:44:34 GMT
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    Well,as I recall,they were handling the bone as well,and moaning
that they couldn't get it to go away as well.But I could be wrong,as it
was a fair while ago and I wasn't taking notes.

        G.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Remote Viewing.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 93 06:30:11 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Viewers: I believe you will find that Remote Viewing is the act
of putting your physical body in a certain state and projecting your
intelligence to another place to look at things and bring back
information. It is something that our government spends a great deal
of money on but outwardly denies it's existence. It's a good way to
spy on other people without their knowing about it. It also has some
good uses.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 93 06:37:16 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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References:  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Seekers:
The space people have a suggestion to the human race, Don't look down
all the time like your cows do, look up part of the time and you may
see something. They mean no disrespect.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 93 06:40:36 PST
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Distribution: world
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Dear People: Have patience dear ones, we shall overcome if we faint
not.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Subject: Re: Guardian
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1993 00:24:45 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Blasinski) writes:
>    The document that was shown as a DOD document was nothing but

Bill Knell claimed the taped was his and that it was stolen by someone
and leaked to UM.  Said this in Seattle Friday 2/5/93.  He indicated that
he knew the farmer that taped it with his new camera and that helicopters
flew off with the saucer.  He also indicated he knew who it was that leaked
it to U.M. but was very vague.  I speculate that it could even have been
him, but I have nothing other than subjective intuition to base that on.

He's a very personable guy, but once was enough.

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]    |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
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From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Subject: Re: Guardian
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Blasinski) writes:
>a crude representation of an actual document. Anybody with a half
>decent word processor and a PC could have done a better job.

Bill Knell claimed the taped was his and that it was stolen by someone
and leaked to UM.  Said this in Seattle Friday 2/5/93.  He indicated that
he knew the farmer that taped it with his new camera and that helicopters
flew off with the saucer.  He also indicated he knew who it was that leaked
it to U.M. but was very vague.

For all I know, he could have sent it in himself...

Rick


--
Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]    |
Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
                                 |          and annoys the droid.
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Whitelaw)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government coverups
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Feb 93 15:46:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Reply-To: [e-mail] (Robert Whitelaw)
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
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Hello All,

    In this article, the basic question is asked "Why would the government cover
something up?". But the question answers itself, who knows what may happen as
the result of releasing information? Even if there is only a small chance of the
information causing "problems", the government will just classify it to cover all the
bases. I have an associate who sits at a desk in the pentagon and reviews bills of
lading, and import/export documents that we obtain from ports that are in
countries which we consider less than friendly. His job is to review this information
and decide what department it should go to and what level of classification it should
have. He indicates that 40% of what he reviews ends up as classfied. He would not
discuss the criteria that determines what is to be classified, but he did say that
they are fairly broad.

    Now, if a bill of lading for a shipment of rice can be considered classified by our
government, I would be willing to bet that they might just consider a piece of some
craft that crashes somewhere classified as well.

RW


My opinions only!
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From: [e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government and aliens
Keywords: Question..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Feb 93 13:07:55 GMT
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[e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes
> >    Question... Since there are meta-operants around these days (I should know,
> >  I WAS one as a child),
>
>   Oh, OK,  I'll bite . . . what's a "meta operant"?
>
>
> ---peter


You know, I never meta operant I didn't like... but only because they *made*
me like them!

MdF

------
[e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
The Cellar BBS - [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Fiasco
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[e-mail] (Jeff) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
> >
> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
> >>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (C
> >>>  Danny:
> >>>
>
> >>  I've talked with lots of enthusiastic people who claim to have
> >>  talked with God; there's probably far more of them in the US
> >>  than UFO-believers.  But somehow in the absence of physical
> >>  evidence I find such conversations . . . uh . . . less than
> >>  compelling.
> >
> >Yah, me too. I saw Boston Garden full of them one time. Part of the so-calle
> >charismatic church movement is something called "receiving the Holy Spirit"
> >"baptism with the Holy Spirit" or other words to that effect. Trying to pin
> >down the details of this experience was like pushing a rope. I came to belie
> >that there were no details to pin down, though I may well be wrong.
> >
> >Many UFO incidents are alot like this. Some, like Roswell, reveal more and m
> >detail as folks dig deeper. I keep an eye on the latter, and generally dismi
> >the former.
> >
> >-Tom R.   [e-mail]
>
>
>
>
> Such short sighted philosophy and belief systems are a sad thing.
>
> You guys should try reading Cosmic Consciousness by Richard Bucke,M.D.
> It details the illumination of the mind in the latter half of adult
> hood, and the great fountain of creativity that can come with it.
>
> At this point, you become cognative of the divine essance that
> dwells within and of you. At this level, it is possible to create
> and understand great bodies of knowledge that are part of the human
> collective consciousness. These are the secrets of the mystery schools.
>
> The sad part is that not everyone develops this ability with age...
>
> Jeff-


Sorry to leave all the text in. My editor is primitive and inflexible.

I am not a strong believer in UFOs -- in fact, I tend to DISbelieve most of
what I read about 'em -- but Bucke's book bears reading. It was written in
1898, before the term was abused into a cliche. The book actually has a very
rational, non-mystical orientation toward the problems of mystical and
religious experience. Bucke corresponded with William James and S. Weir
Mitchell; he himself was Whitman's personal physician. (BTW, his name is
Maurice Bucke).

The non-mystical phrasing of what "cosmic con." is: It's highly developed
perception of patterns which eventually leads to "religious experience". Many
case histories are examined (including Whitman) and the phenomenon is
compared to other senses and their development in human growth.

Not exactly a cutting-edge book, but one of the best pioneering efforts.

MdF

------
[e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
The Cellar BBS - [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Friedman)
Subject: Re: New Physics,Healing & Paranormal 2 "White Paper"
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jack Sarfatti) writes:

>Continuing part 2 of my paid for "intelligence analysis" on the impact
>of New Age Paradigms on the future of medicine, new marketing
>strategies, new politics, etc. etc. for a high level consortium based
>in Luxembourg,Geneva,London and Paris. Your (unpaid) comments,
>criticisms will be included (if of value) in footnotes. I am striving
>for a balanced objective presentation.

Jack, can you please identify this consortium?  I want to short their stock.

Thanks
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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government Flying Saucers
Keywords: Top Secret Hah!
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>Don't ask me where I got
>this information. Let's just say it is very VERY reliable.

Let's just say you are VERY gullible.

--
"When Frederic Myers wrote his two-volume 'Human Personality and Its Survival
 After Death' (1903), he did not, in fact, interview any dead people to ask
 if their personalities had survived."--William Marston
Jason D. Corley (alias [e-mail]), Mad Mathematician
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From: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: N.E. Ohio Center for ET Studies
Date: 10 Feb 1993 18:45:13 GMT
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***********************************************************************
          NORTHEAST OHIO CENTER FOR EXTRATERRESTRIAL STUDIES
               (was Northeast Ohio CE5 Working Group)
                       INVESTIGATION REPORT
***********************************************************************

On Sunday, Feb. 7, five members of NOCES travelled to Ahland, Ohio to
interview Cliff Stumbaugh.  Our interest in Cliff arose from a
description we had heard of an event called a "Network UFO Watch
Rally", which Cliff had presented several years ago.  This report came
from a woman with no prior UFO experience who had been invited to
attend the event by a friend.  The rally was held at Mt. Geis, a remote
hilltop near Mansfield with a commanding 270 degree view of the
surrounding countryside.  The woman reported that a group assembled on
top of the mountain after dark, and began chanting and beaming their
flashlights into the sky.  Much to her surprise, several "lights" moved
in from various locations in the sky to form a 5 pointed formation
directly over the group.  The woman stated that the rate at which these
objects moved precluded the possibility that they were conventional
aircraft.

Based on the above (admittedly sketchy) report, and our interest in
pursuing CE5 (Close Encounters of the 5th Kind) activities, we tracked
down Mr. Stumbaugh and arranged a meeting.  We asked Cliff about the
rally, and he told us that he had held many such events over the years,
but no longer did so.  His ability to contact these extraterrestrials,
or Merkabas, as he called them, began one night when he spotted one of
them in the sky.  Although he had no prior telepathic experience, he
called out in thought to the object, at which point it immediately
responded and moved directly towards him.  Cliff stated that he felt as
if he was "scanned", and was surprised to find that for a long period
the object "followed him around."  He began receiving telepathic
messages from it, and eventually began to hold gatherings where
multiple persons were able to witness the objects.

Cliff gave many more details about the Merkabas, which he claimed were
5th dimensional beings rather than spaceships.  I will not describe
these here in the interest of brevity.  He has also on one occasion
witnessed "greys" on his property.

Our initial assesment of Cliff is that he is intelligent, and seemingly
honest.  He seems to fall squarely under the "contactee" heading, and
has a very "new-ageish" philosophy.  In light of the independent report
from the woman who informed us of Cliff, we have concluded that there
is a high probability that some sort of paranormal activity occured at
these rallies, although we reserve our judgement on exactly what it was.

The most promising outcome of the interview is that Cliff has kindly
agreed to take our group out to Mt. Geis this summer to witness the
phenomenon for ourselves.

***********************************************************************
 If you live in the vicinity of Northeast Ohio, and are interested in
      participating in NOCES activities, please respond by email.
***********************************************************************
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yours lose its way home ?
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Can someone help me get a copy of Whitley Streiber's book...Communion?
                           Mike at [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: meta this meta that..
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>Peter:
>
>The only place I have ever encountered the term meta-operant, or operant
>is in a series of novels by author Julian May, collectively termed "The
>Pleistocene Saga"  (or is that Pliocene?  I can never keep that straight!)
>Anyway, the term apparently refers to humans/sentient beings of extrememly
>high and trained psychic ability.  The term covers many things, including
>telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation, and other psi phenomena.  I have never
>seen anyone use the term outside of fiction until now.  BTW, the books are
>excellent, you might pick them up some time.


    You're gonna hate this Peter, but STNG uses the term as well. They use the term METAPHYSICS, this is another way of saying paranormal. and yes, I love those Julian Maye's books. Will she come up with another after the UNBORN KING?

                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: UFO vs Paranormal Newsgroup
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    Many people seem to be complaining about JW, I,
and a few others posting paranormal related topics on
alt.alien.visitors. This is an unfounded complaint because
the two are very closely related. Abductions by aliens
many times has to do with controlling the abductee's mind.
Also the contacting of Aliens has much to do with telepathic
communication. As I asked before, isn't there a government
First Contact Team with Psi members? Sounds prudent to me.

            ^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE
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From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Alan Perkins)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: re:Communion
Date: 10 Feb 1993 21:50:49 GMT
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In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:

>Can someone help me get a copy of Whitley Streiber's book...Communion?
>                           Mike at [e-mail]
>
Check out the library or your local bookstore.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: meta this meta that..
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]  writes:
>
>>Peter:
>>
>>The only place I have ever encountered the term meta-operant, or operant
>>is in a series of novels by author Julian May, collectively termed "The
>>Pleistocene Saga"  (or is that Pliocene?  I can never keep that straight!)
>>Anyway, the term apparently refers to humans/sentient beings of extrememly
>>high and trained psychic ability.  The term covers many things, including
>>telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation, and other psi phenomena.  I have never
>>seen anyone use the term outside of fiction until now.

  OK, thanks for the definition.

  Now would the original poster care to back up his claim
  about being a "meta operant" with a small demonstration?
  No?  I didn't think so.



>    You're gonna hate this Peter, but STNG uses the term as well. They
> use the term METAPHYSICS, this is another way of saying paranormal.

  . . . and people doubt my claims about the effects of TV on
  the intellectual level of its viewers!

  ( I didn't hate that at all; in fact I rather enjoyed pointing
    out what a moron the second poster is. )


---peter





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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: UFO vs Paranormal Newsgroup
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>    Many people seem to be complaining about JW, I,
>and a few others posting paranormal related topics on
>alt.alien.visitors. This is an unfounded complaint because
>the two are very closely related. Abductions by aliens
>many times has to do with controlling the abductee's mind.

  Really?  Why don't you try controlling your own mind and
  thinking before you post or at least cite some evidence.

>Also the contacting of Aliens has much to do with telepathic
>communication. As I asked before, isn't there a government
>First Contact Team with Psi members? Sounds prudent to me.

  It sounds prudent to me for you to come up with some
  evidence for your claims.


---peter


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From: [e-mail] (Rick Shrum)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear People: Have patience dear ones, we shall overcome if we faint
>not.
>John Winston.


Dear People: Have patience dear ones, we shall overcome if we faint.
NOT!


                            R ****
                             I
                              C
                          **** K

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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
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Subject: Re: John Winston
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Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Per-Ake Dahl) writes:
> >
> >I have but on question. WHO ARE YOU JOHN WHINSTON??? WHAT ARE YOU??? an alien???
> >I mean, have have read a lot of crap but yours are outstanding.

>    They're certainly out standing in my kill file.

>    But despite that I can't seem to avoid him because
>    people insist on referencing his idiotic drool in
>    their own posting as we see from (Mr/Ms?) Dahl, here!

>    And meanwhile I get flamed for making comments about
>    TV shows!


> ---peter


That maybe because TV shows have no place in a UFO group like a.a.v., if you
write about a subject not connected with the UFO phenomena (i.e. Star Trek), you
deserve everything you get.

--
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The U/M Guardian case: FACTS
Keywords: Canada, Carp, Area 51, Guardian, video
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Feb 93 02:22:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: AT&T
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski) writes:
> Okay, guys.  Here's the REAL info about the Guardian case.
>
[some deletions of Mr. Rutkowski's earlier experience with a similar
(same?) case]
>
> The video came later.  Oeschler was only one of several people to get
> it.  He obviously thinks it's real.
>
> Okay, the video LOOKS good, and he somehow found a witness (whose story
> matches exactly [!!!!] the video image) who saw something during the
> year in about the same area.  But putting it into the context of all
> the other stuff, the case looks very, very bad.

Suppose the Guardian got ahold of what looks like a real video of
a very strange and unexplained happening, and used that as a
springboard in an attempt to legitimize a fantastic plot the G
feels is being perpetrated on the people by their respective
governments.
>
> Now, of course, if someone fingers the Guardian, then the UM segment
> will have been worthwhile.  But as a UFO case, forget it!
>
Even though the G's documents are not taken seriously, that
should not obscure what looks like a very strange phenomenon
on film. If the film segment was staged, hell it would be worth
it to find the person responsible and hire them on as the next
special effects engineer for Star Trek deep throat Nine(er, space).
That is the best special effects footage I have ever seen.

barry--
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: UFOs and time.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 93 18:02:50 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
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Subject: UFOs and Time.
  Don't look now but it looks like the people from other planets have a few
things that they can do with time that are pretty hard to figure out, like
the following incident.....Three missing women who suddenly turned up after
25 years have stunned authorities with their claim that they were kidnapped
by a UFO and taken to heaven.
  The three, college students at the time, disappeared while walking along a
farm road in 1966. they were given up for dead by relatives and police.
  But they mysteriously reappeared on the same road - looking exactly as they
did 25 years ago!
  They say a UFO had taken them - not to another planet - but to another
dimension where they met dead friends and relatives.
  "I don't know what to make of it," says Margot Tercee, the mother of one
woman.
  "She looks exactly like my daughter, Denise, behaves the same, and
rememebers things only she and I know."
  Police say the trio's dental records and fingerprints also match those of
the missing students.
  "They took us so that we can tell everyone that there is life after death,"
says Denise.
  "UFOs are not space ships but the angles of death who gather the souls of
the dead and transport them to heaven." JW don't quote me on that statement.
  Veronique Farneau notes; "After the time we spent on the other side. I'm not
afraid of death anymore. I just can't wait to see my grandfather and
grandmother again."
  Denise, Veronique and Pauline Villiers - who were between 19 and 21 when
they disappeared - told police in Limpoges, France, they were "sucked up' by
some type of alien craft while walking on the road near their school at
night.
  "I looked up just in time to see this spinning disk-like object with
flashing lights hovering above us," Denise recalls.
  "We were suddenly in a bright, white room. We were communicating with
creatures, but they weren't wholly physical. It was as if we were in between
the material and spiritual world.
  "We were finally taken to heaven."
 The girls say everyone they had know who had died was waiting when they
stepped off the UFO.
  "Everyone looked so happy," says Pauline. "My younger brother, who died from
leukemia when he was 8, was the picture of health."
  At the end of their stay, the girls were engulfed in a bright light and were
told they were being returned to Earth to reassure people there is a purpose
to life and a reward in the hereafter.
  But when they returned - at the same spot where they had been abducted -
they couldn't believe 25 years had gone by.
   Political and religious leaders admit they are confounded.
  "They have been indentified by their partents and that indentification is
supported by official records, including fingerprints and DNA tests," says
Roman Catholic Cardinal Josef Bruneau.
  "If this is a hoax, it is elaborate beyond belief. Based on the evidence we
have and what they have told us, we have no other choice but to believe
their stories. John Coffin.
Source of Information: October 29, 1991 -SUN _ page 3.
JW Well, land sakes, can that be?
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Underground City Number 2.
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>>Subject: UFO Underground City.
> > In the past I read something about an underground city. Here is how the
>>information went; ...A team of archaeologists probing ancient ruins in
>>Brazil have discovered an underground city that was inhabited by aliens
>>6,000 years ago!


    Man, you must have been reading Erich VonDaniken....who did some jail
time in Germany for fraud.....hint, hint...

(or was it tax evasion????....)

Duane

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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
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[e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey) writes:

> think a note of caution is needed also. As you and others may know The UFO
> Field has a wide range of people involved with it.
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

...a large number of whom seem to be utter charlatans and frauds who will
do anything to make a buck, thus ruining any possibility of doing a
serious study.

Duane

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  Why do you post stuff taken from tabloid
 magazines? I could tell from the first couple
 sentences that it was bullshit.
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: 2 Abduction articles - Fido ET echo
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 02:38:31 GMT
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Hi Folks,

This is from the Fido ET echo..two interesting abduction reports.

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AREA:ET
Sun 7 Feb 93 21:39
By: John Powell
To: All
Re: Abduction Articles
St:
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The following two articles on Abductions, both by the same author (whose
first book is currently in print) and both appearing in popular
magazines at the same time, paint an interesting picture of where the
phenomenon is probably heading.

Thanks, take care.
John.
-
<Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence>

--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network (901)-785-4943 (88:88/0)


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(1675)  Sun 7 Feb 93 21:39
By: John Powell
To: All
Re: Abduction Article I, 1/4
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Encounter Phenomena Defy "Set Pattern"; by Karla Turner.

(UFO, Vol. 8 No. 1 1993, Copyright 1992 by California UFO, 1536 S.
Robertson Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90035, published bi-monthly with a
subscription rate of $21/yr.  Offices: UFO, PO Box 1053, Sunland, CA
91041-1053 818-951-1250)

     It is a myth that alien abductions of humans follow a set pattern
or agenda.  Perhaps the best-known proponent of this theory is Budd
Hopkins, who in his books made the genetics and cross-breeding scenario
familiar to the public.  Yet when you read back through those books,
you'll notice that several of the alien encounters seem to have very
little apparent connection to an interest in breeding or DNA.  And even
Hopkins, in the past couple of years, has had to expand his theory to
include a definite alien interest in some other things, such as pleasure
and pain in humans.
     Other well-known UFO researchers also harbor restrictive theories
about the abduction phenomenon.  Jacques Vallee, David Jacobs, Whitley
Strieber, Brad Steiger, John Lear, Raymond Fowler, Jenny Randles, Kevin
Randle, John Keel and other writers hold a diversity of intelligent,
often ingenious, theories, yet each makes the same error.  They ignore
parts of the abductions evidence--whatever details don't support their
ideas.

INADEQUATE THEORIES.

     Yet it must be clear that any present theory which cannot account
for all the known evidence is not acceptable.  At best, it can be
misleading, especially for victims of abductions who turn to these
prominent researchers seeking answers.
     A case in point occurred during a conversation I had with a
prominent researcher in 1989.  In his lectures, this researcher always
said that he had certain ways of testing the validity of potential new
abduction cases, and one of those ways was the presence of particular
scars on the victims' bodies.  I questioned him about a different kind
of scar, one which I knew often appeared on abductees of my own
acquaintance, and the researcher denied that such a mark showed up in
his cases.
     "Are you sure?" I asked incredulously.  "This mark is pretty common
around here, and I'd think it would show up in other places, too.  In
fact, I know it has.
     "No," he insisted, shaking his head, "the only marks I find are
like the ones I've already described."
     "And this other mark hasn't shown up at all?" I asked.
     "No," he repeated.
     "Not even once?" I persisted.
     "Well," he said reluctantly, lowering his voice, "there have been a
couple of instances.  That child I talked about tonight, she had two of
those marks, and I think there was another case. But they're so rare
that I have to ignore them.  When you have two hundred cases with Scar A
and only two cases with Scar B, you go with numbers."
     And that was the message he delivered, to an audience where anxious
abductees were made to wonder if their anomalous marks meant anything
after all, or if, as so many of their friends seemed to think, they were
delusions of a troubled mind.

'NO SINGLE PATTERN'.

     In truth, however, although there are recurrent events in the
abduction phenomenon, there is no single pattern or structure.  And
until we know what all the events mean, we can't afford to ignore any of
them.
     What is one to make, for instance, of an ET-human encounter in
which two of the four aliens assisted the abductee in preparing a roast
for dinner?  Granted, other events occurred in this case, but the dinner
was indeed cooked, served and eaten by the abductee's family less than
two hours after the ETs departed.
     Other details of this encounter included the manipulation of the
abductee's neck, "for the purpose of instruction," and a discussion of
genetically-stored memories and knowledge that can be tapped open in
humans.  But there was no medical exam, no cross-breeding activity, and
no warnings of coming catastrophe, all of which are events that have
been used to construct abduction theories.  I know this to be true,
because it happened to me.


--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network (901)-785-4943 (88:88/0)

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(1674)  Sun 7 Feb 93 21:39
By: John Powell
To: All
Re: Abduction Article I, 2/4
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HUMAN DUPLICATES.

     Another anomalous event involves the duplication or replacement of
the human by an alien counterpart.  In one instance, a young man and his
fiancee were in their car when a "shimmering force" enveloped him.  He
passed out, but moments later he began to move, acting and talking
entirely different. His fiancee became terrified when he tried to drag
her out into the dark back yard, where he told her "Something wants to
see you there."  And only when a friend drove into the yard did the
young man return to normal, with no memory of his aberrant behavior
during the past ten minutes.
     Under hypnotic regression, the fiancee described the young man as
being kept in the car while the "other one" took his form and tried to
control her.  She called the "other one" a "hologram" and consistently
referred to it as "it," not "him." In fact, she said she struggled to
get away from "it" and back to the car where "the real" young man was
still waiting.
     Under separate regression, the young man recalled his version of
the evening and said that at a certain point he was "turned off" and
"unplugged," yet he couldn't say what sort of power was then operating
his body.
     An even more bizarre event happened to a woman in the Southwest
during her encounter.  She said she was "removed" from her body and
stored in some inexplicable way, still aware, however, and able to
communicate with her captors.  They told her that another entity was now
using her body, that it was going through all her regular activities,
and that no one would be able to tell the difference.  The day after the
abduction when she returned to her job, she found that her body had
indeed been at work, even though she herself was somewhere else.

'INTERDIMENSIONAL BEING'.

     These alien intruders apparently can behave and appear in a variety
of ways.  In one man's experience, a human-looking woman often appeared,
although she claimed she was an interdimensional being whose real
appearance was not what the abductee saw.  At times she would be
"completely there" and very three-dimensional, but at other times only
her head would be visible, or her head and hands.
     The evidence from several cases also shows that the aliens have an
odd interest in our animals, yet this is hardly mentioned in standard
abduction research.  During a period of intense ET activity in my
family's life, for instance, our dog was somehow moved one night from a
fenced back yard into a locked garage. And the same dog, conversely,
woke us up one morning barking in the back yard, when it had been put in
a locked garage the night before.  In both cases, there was no sign that
either the gate or the garage door had been opened.  The old dog was
quite blind, at any rate, and would have had trouble getting anywhere,
even if both passageways had been clear.

PET PUZZLER.

     Transporting dogs turned up again in the case of a UFO researcher.
Her dog slept outside, yet in the middle of the night she was awakened
by his wet tongue on her face.  She and the dog were in her bed, but her
bedroom door was still locked, as was the outside door, and there were
two other doors closed in between them.
     Horses also have been moved, leaving their abductee-owners to track
them down in corrals far distant from where the animals had been locked
away for the night.  It's hard to imagine the purpose of such events,
yet they are part of the larger phenomenon and must have some relevance.
     There also seems to be a connection between abductions and the
disappearance or appearance of possessions and other objects. One of the
more humorous episodes occurred when a researcher was visiting another
city and staying as a guest in our home.  The day had been spent in work
with other abductees, and that evening the group ordered Chinese food.


--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network (901)-785-4943 (88:88/0)

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(1676)  Sun 7 Feb 93 21:39
By: John Powell
To: All
Re: Abduction Article I, 3/4
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PREFERRED UTENSILS APPEAR.

     As we sat eating the food, the researcher remarked that she
preferred eating Chinese food with chopsticks, but we didn't have any.
After the meal, the researcher went to her room then returned moments
later with a very puzzled expression.  "I thought you didn't have any
chopsticks," she told my husband. "And I certainly didn't mean for you
to go out and buy them!  But thank you anyway for being so thoughtful."
She held out a pair of chopsticks wrapped in paper and smiled.
     "Where did you get those?" he asked in amazement.
     "They were on my bed," she replied.  "Didn't you put them there?"
     "Of course not!" he exclaimed.  "There aren't--weren't--any
chopsticks in the house, I promise you.  And I haven't gone anywhere!"
     Other objects have appeared out of nowhere, such as metal balls
falling from abductees' bodies when they rose from their beds the
morning after an encounter.  In another instance, a mother saw what
looked like a white book floating horizontally in her son's bedroom, but
when she went in, there was no book to be seen.  In one abductee's home,
a fish disappeared from their aquarium, and then it reappeared ten days
later, twice as large as it had been.  Within 24 hours, however, it
died, as did all the other fish in the tank.

WOMEN IN DISTRESS.

     Perhaps the most remarkable and disturbing set of cases concerned
two women I know but who are unacquainted with each other.  The first
woman awoke one morning to find her bed soaked with blood.  It was
during her menstrual cycle, yet she was surprised to have bled so
profusely as to soak through the tampon she had inserted before going to
bed.  When she went to the bathroom to clean up, she could find no
tampon to remove. Frantically she searched her bed, the bedroom, and
finally her entire apartment, but the tampon had disappeared.  A few
days later, she related the incident to me, but neither of us knew what
to make of it.
     A month passed, and I received a call from the second woman, who
lived far away from me.  She was perplexed by an event of the previous
night and wanted to tell someone about it.  This woman was having her
menstrual cycle also, and the night before had put on a sanitary pad
before going to bed.  Several hours later, she woke up and decided to go
change the pad, as she was an unusually heavy bleeder.  In surprise,
however, she found the pad was spotless, and then she felt something
inside her.  She told me that she removed the tampon, but couldn't
understand how it had gotten there.  "I haven't used tampons in ten
years," she said, "so this doesn't make any sense."

ANOMALIES IN 'TYPICAL' REPORTS.

     Anomalies have turned up in some cases that might otherwise seem to
follow the "typical" abduction sequence of going into the "ship,"
undergoing an examination and being returned with little or no memory.
Sometimes, for instance, the surroundings in the "ship" are described as
messy or dirty, with foul odors and signs of sloppy housekeeping.
Sometimes the interior is said to be crowded, buzzing with numerous
entities engaged in rapid, inexplicable movements from place to place.
     Even more unusual are those accounts of abductions to inner space
rather than outer space.  In these cases, abductees tell of being taken
into large underground complexes, and their descriptions very often
include earthly--perhaps military-- apparatus as well as the presence of
both humans and aliens working together.  These underground areas are
reached through long vertical or corkscrewing tunnels, the abductees
say, and in one case the place looked like a movie set of an old Western
town.


--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network (901)-785-4943 (88:88/0)

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(1677)  Sun 7 Feb 93 21:39
By: John Powell
To: All
Re: Abduction Article I, 4/4
St:
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'BATHROOM SETTINGS'.

     A third anomalous episode, which may have taken place aboard a
craft or in an underground setting, involves abductees taken into
"bathroom" settings.  There they are made to get into "stalls" with or
without toilets, and in most cases the abductees are thoroughly
frightened by the events that occur in these surroundings, often having
to do with examination of their sexual organs.
     Most of these anomalous details have come from a relatively small
group of abductees, yet similar cases are known elsewhere. In the
instance of the odd scar, which began this discussion, there are cases
of the triangular pattern turning up all over the world, yet no
prominent researcher has acknowledged this.  The scoop marks and
straight-line cuts are well known, but just as frequent are less
permanent scars and marks.  Single, double and multiple puncture marks
appear on abductees' bodies, as do wide paths of subcutaneous purplish
smears, triangles and other shapes made by skin discoloration rather
than punctures, and long claw- mark scratches, usually numerous,
accompanied by even longer welts of unbroken skin.

CHALLENGE TO 'POSITIVE' THEORIES.

     As to researchers who claim that the ETs are here to help us evolve
some higher consciousness or that they are here for some other positive
purpose--saving our plant, promoting world peace, etc.--I challenge
those researchers to incorporate anomalous data into this view.
     What about those people who suffer total breakdowns after their
experiences?  What about those who undergo wild personality changes, who
find themselves obsessed with deviant sexual behavior they never had
before, often leading to the breakup of marriages and friendships?
These things have happened numerous times, but no researcher has yet
explained the higher purpose behind such results.
     Particularly disturbing are those cases where previously healthy
individuals have an ET encounter and then develop debilitating or
terminal illnesses.  It is well known that many women suffer
gynecological problems after their experiences, often leading to
hysterectomies.  But other instances have shown the development of
severe fatigue, horrible swelling and itching, and even cancer.  Where
are the positive effects in these cases?
     Theories are starting places for research, not proven conclusions,
and UFO researchers must be willing to expand and alter their pet
theories according to the data they uncover.  It would be wonderful if
we could shape ET experiences into something positive, but until the
details of abduction encounters--all the details--are given serious
consideration, I think it's dangerous to cling to theories that ignore
data that will not fit.  We owe it to ourselves to seek the whole truth.

(Karla Turner, Ph.D. received her doctorate in English studies from the
University of North Texas and was a university teaching fellow for over
a decade.  Author of the recently-released Into the Fringe, she has
researched the UFO phenomenon and worked with abductees since 1988.)


--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network (901)-785-4943 (88:88/0)

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To: All
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"Alien Abductions in the Gingerbread House"; by Dr. Karla Turner.

(UFO Universe, Vol. 3 No. 1 Spring 1993.  Copyright 1993 by Charlotte
Magazine Corp., Inc.  1700 Broadway, New York, NY 10019.  Published
quarterly with a subscription rate of $14/yr.  815-734-1103.)

     World renowned UFO researcher Jacques Vallee has repeatedly
referred to the similarities between UFO and abduction reports and the
stories of folklore and fairy tales.  I disagree with Dr. Vallee on
many, many points of UFOlogy, but here I will grant that there is one
fairy tale which does have something important to tell us about the
alien abduction phenomenon.  It is not, however, what Dr. Vallee might
think.
     The story of Hansel and Gretel presents a lesson that every
abductee should heed.  These innocent children, wandering lost and
frightened in the forest, came upon a gingerbread house that seemed to
offer them shelter and sustenance.  The owner of the house, a wizened
old woman, was frightening to them at first, but their hunger pushed the
children to accept her offer to come inside and be fed.
     And so they entered the gingerbread house and promptly became the
old woman's captives.  Kept in cages, the two children were abundantly
fed.  It was not for their benefit, though.  In fact, they were being
fattened up for the oven!  The deceptive nature of the gingerbread house
and of the old woman's offer of food worked quite well.
     It is the deceptive quality of this story that holds a warning for
humans who are abducted by aliens.  Like Hansel and Gretel, we are
initially terrified by our encounter with aliens, but in too many cases,
our fear is overcome by the words of our abductors and by the thoughts
and experiences they present to us.
     I, too, am an abductee, and my quest to discover the nature of my
own experiences led me into abduction research over the past four years.
Working with many other abduction cases, I have learned just how basic
the deception of alien actions can be.
     My family and I also delved into our own experiences, both past and
present.  Barbara Bartholic, a dedicated UFO investigator from Tulsa,
Oklahoma, worked closely with us and helped us fill in the gaps in our
recollections of strange encounters through hypnotic regression.  Ms.
Bartholic, by the way, began her own research as an assistant to Jacques
Vallee in cattle mutilation investigations, so her expertise in ufology
is wide-ranging.  I have recently written a book, Into the Fringe, about
the startling and often disturbing results of our personal
investigations, and it will be published by the Berkley Publishing Group
in November 1992.
     But my interest soon expanded past the merely personal, and for the
past several years I have worked as Ms. Bartholic's research associate,
exploring literally hundreds of sighting and encounter cases with her.
And what I've learned through this work has raised far more questions
than answers.  In fact, it has taught me to be wary of those researchers
who do claim to have answers.  I have yet to hear of a single theory or
explanation that accounts for all of the data.
     Some researchers have pointed out patterns of events in the
abduction experience, such as the physical examination, the taking of
sperm and ova, and the later presentation of a hybrid baby to the
abductee.  Other patterns include the training of the abductee in some
way and the delivery of a warning of some upcoming global disaster.
Yes, these events are frequently reported, as one researcher has said in
boringly repetitious accounts, and it is tempting to think that the
explanation for alien abductions may lie in these patterns.
     So the researchers announce that the problem is solved.  The aliens
are doing cross-breeding experiments, UFOlogists tell us. Never mind the
overwhelming evidence against the viable commingling of different
species.  Or, we are told, the aliens are here to save us from
destroying ourselves and our planet through violence, drug use, epidemic
disease, pollution, and resource depletion.  Never mind that these
problems have grown worse, not better, since the ETs began visiting us.

--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network (901)-785-4943 (88:88/0)

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(1678)  Sun 7 Feb 93 21:39
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To: All
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     Or, most infuriating of all, we are assured that there are no
actual aliens, that our experiences spring from our own subconscious
turmoil or from our need for fantasy fulfillment. Never mind that many
abductees are young children, too young to be suffering from such
psychological disturbances.  Well, then, the resourceful researcher
counters, the imagined aliens must spring from some collective human
super-psyche that is mirroring our failures and dangers back to us.
This particular theory adores the archetypal gray ET, because it
resembles some sickly fetal form of humanity and must therefore be an
objectified warning of what our species is in danger of becoming if we
don't mend our ways.  Never mind that many, many abductees have no
dealing with grays, but instead are victimized by robust reptoids and
insectoids.  Not to mention the totally human-looking blond beauties and
black-headed, black-robed clan with the widow's peak hairline.
     No, too many researchers seem to find a theory and cling to it in
spite of data that contradict it.  And it is the ideas of these
researchers that dominate ufology.  But if the public had access to the
raw data, to the first-hand reports of abductees, especially those
unfamiliar with UFO-oriented books, magazines, and lecturers, they would
find a much less neatly organized set of patterns.  These "virgin"
cases--people uncontaminated by ufological literature--supply a
staggering picture of human-alien contact events.
     What follows here is an overview of these "virgin" reports, a list
of recurrent experiences that taken together gives us a close-up view of
what the aliens are doing here on earth.  This data doesn't tell us for
certain just what sort of creatures the aliens are, or what their
purpose here may be.  But it does tell us what humans are experiencing
and what they are observing in the actions and capabilities of the
aliens.  Every detail in the following list has been reported by more
than one abductee, and in many cases the details have turned up quite
frequently.

ABDUCTION "CHECKLIST".

     If these reports can be believed--and there is no reason to doubt
the honesty of the reporters--the abduction phenomenon includes the
following details.

     --   Aliens can alter our perception of our surroundings.

     --   Aliens can control what we think we see.  They can appear to
us in any number of guises, and shapes.

     --   Aliens can take us--our consciousness--out of our physical
bodies, disable our control of our bodies, install one of their own
entities, and use our bodies as vehicles for their own activities before
returning our consciousness to our bodies.


--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network (901)-785-4943 (88:88/0)

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(1680)  Sun 7 Feb 93 21:39
By: John Powell
To: All
Re: Abduction Article II, 3/6
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     --   Aliens can be present with us in an invisible state and can
make themselves only partially visible.

     --   Abductees receive marks on their bodies other than the
well-known scoops and straight-line scars.  These other marks include
single punctures, multiple punctures, large bruises, three- and
four-fingered claw marks, and triangles of every possible sort.

     --   Females abductees often suffer serious gynecological problems
after their alien encounters, and sometimes these problems lead to
cysts, tumors, cancer of the breasts and uterus, and to hysterectomies.

     --   Aliens take body fluids from our necks, spines, blood veins,
joints such as knees and wrists, and other places.  They also inject
unknown fluids into various parts of our bodies.

     --   A surprising number of abductees suffer from serious illnesses
they didn't have before their encounters.  These have led to surgery,
debilitation, and even death from causes the doctors can't identify.

     --   Some abductees experience a degeneration of their mental,
social, and spiritual well-being.  Excessive behavior frequently erupts,
such as drug abuse, alcoholism, overeating, and promiscuity.  Strange
obsessions develop and cause the disruption of normal life and the
destruction of personal relationships.

     --   Aliens show a great interest in adult sexuality, child
sexuality, and in inflicting physical pain on abductees.

     --   Abductees recall being instructed and trained by aliens.  This
training may be in the form of verbal or telepathic lessons, slide
shows, or actual hands-on instruction in the operation of alien
technology.

     --   Abductees report being taken to facilities in which they
encounter not only aliens but also normal-looking humans, sometimes in
military uniforms, working with the alien captors.

     --   Abductees often encounter more than one sort of alien during
an experience, not just the grays.  Every possible combination of gray,
reptoid, insectoid, blond, and widow's peak have been seen during single
abductions, aboard the same craft or in the same facility.

     --   Abductees--"virgin" cases--report being taken to underground
facilities where they see grotesque hybrid creatures, nurseries of
hybrid humanoid fetuses, and vats of colored liquid filled with parts of
human bodies.

     --   Abductees report seeing other humans in these facilities being
drained of blood, being mutilated, flayed, and dismembered, and being
stacked, lifeless, like cords of wood. Some abductees have been
threatened that they, too, will end up in this condition if they don't
cooperate with their alien captors.

     --   Aliens come into homes and temporarily remove young children,
leaving their distraught parents paralyzed and helpless.  In cases where
a parent has been able to protest, the aliens insist that "The children
belong to us."

     --   Aliens have forced their human abductees to have sexual
intercourse with aliens and even with other abductees while groups of
aliens observe these performances.  In such encounters, the aliens have
sometimes disguised themselves in order to gain the cooperation of the
abductee, appearing in such forms as Jesus, the Pope, certain
celebrities, and even the dead spouses of the abductees.

     --   Children abductees sometimes show a new and obsessive interest
in their own genitalia after alien encounters, saying that their
abductors who come at night have been touching these parts of their
bodies.

     --   Aliens perform extremely painful experiments or procedures on
abductees, saying that these acts are necessary but giving no
explanation why.  Abductees' eyes are painfully removed from the
sockets, allowing the aliens to scrape the area or implant devices into
the area before the eyeballs are replaced, for instance.  Some abductees
are subjected to painful constrictions, often around the head, chest and
extremities. Painful genitalia and anal probes are performed, on
children as well as adults.

     --   Aliens make predictions of an imminent period of global chaos
and destruction.  They say that a certain number of humans- -and the
number varies dramatically from case to case--will be "rescued" from the
planet in order to continue the species, either on another planet or
back on earth after the destruction is over.  Many abductees report that
they don't believe their alien captors and foresee instead a much more
sinister use of the "rescued" humans.


--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network (901)-785-4943 (88:88/0)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1688)  Sun 7 Feb 93 21:40
By: John Powell
To: All
Re: Abduction Article II, 4/6
St:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     In every instance from this list, there are multiple reports from
unrelated cases, confirming that such bizarre details are not the
product of a single deranged mind.  These details are convincing
evidence that, contrary to the claims of many UFO researchers, the
abduction experience isn't limited to a uniform pattern of events.  This
phenomenon simply can't be explained in terms of cross-breeding
experiments or scientific research into the human physiology.

SPIRITUALLY ENLIGHTENED?

     And it becomes clear from these details that the beings who are
doing such things can't be seen as spiritually enlightened, with the
best interest of the human race in mind.  Something else is going on,
something far more painful and frightening, in many, many abduction
encounters.
     There is a theory current in ufological research that says
abductees who perceive their experiences in a negative way only do so
because they themselves aren't spiritually or psychically advanced.
Persons with higher cosmic development have positive alien encounters,
so the theory goes, and those who have painful or frightening
experiences are merely spiritual Neanderthals. This is a pet theory of
researchers who claim that aliens, whether objectively real or not,
serve as "mirrors" of our spiritual nature, on an individual or a
species-wide basis. Strieber has voiced this theory, for instance, in
Majestic, where he says, "In the eyes of the others [the aliens], we who
met them saw ourselves.  And there were demons there."
     Having worked with so many decent, honest, positively oriented
abductees, however, I believe this theory is wrong.  It is worse than
wrong--it is despicable, as despicable as blaming a rape victim for the
violence committed against her.  This attitude leaves many abductees
feeling doubly violated, first by the aliens who took them and then by
the UFO researchers to whom they turn for explanations and help.
     But it is easy to understand why such a theory would be so popular.
Humans have a deep need to believe in the power of good.  We need for
the aliens to be a good force, since we feel so helpless in their
presence.  And we need for some superior force to offer us a hope of
salvation, both personally and globally, when we consider the sorry
state of the world.
     I think the aliens know this about us--they know that we want and
hope for them to be benevolent creatures--and they use our desire for
goodness to manipulate us.  What better way to gain our cooperation than
to tell us that the things they are doing are for our own good?  But
looking at the actions, the results of alien interference such as the
long list above.  There is a great discrepancy between what we desire
from them and what they are doing to us.
     Not all abduction reports are filled with frightening or painful
events, of course.  Many people say that their alien encounters felt
benevolent, that their abductors treated them kindly or at least with a
scientific detachment.  Some abductees recall being told that they were
"special," that they were "chosen," and that they have an important task
to perform for the benefit of humanity.
     Given such a positive message, the abductees may ignore the fear
and the pain of their encounters and insist to themselves and to others
that a higher motive underlies the abduction experience.  And, in some
cases, all that an abductee remembers is a benevolent encounter and so
has no reason to assume any negative action has occurred.
     But intensive research shows that at the core of the human- alien
interaction there is a clear pattern of deception.  We know, for
instance, that "screen memories" are often used to mask an alien
abduction.  Such accounts abound, in which a person sees a familiar yet
out-of-place animal, like a deer or owl, a monkey or a rabbit, and then
experiences a period of missing time.  The person often awakens later to
find a new, unexplained scar on his body.
     Uneasiness about the encounter will persist, however, and far
different memories may start to surface in dreams or flashbacks, and
then the person seeks help to explain the uneasiness.  Quite often,
hypnotic regression is used to uncover the events behind the "screen
memory," and that is when a typical alien abduction surfaces.

--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network (901)-785-4943 (88:88/0)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1687)  Sun 7 Feb 93 21:40
By: John Powell
To: All
Re: Abduction Article II, 5/6
St:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The most recent research in which I've been involved has turned up
yet a second sort of screening process.  If it turns out to be accurate,
then thousands of abduction cases are in urgent need of re-examination.
     The typical scenario of undergoing the regressive hypnosis usually
results in penetration of the initial blocked memories.
     The abductee then recalls an encounter, hitherto unremembered, such
as undergoing a physical examination of some sort, perhaps having body
tissues removed or having a gynecological exam.  Other typical reports
include the taking of sperm and ova, of being told of an important task
to be carried out, or of receiving a warning of upcoming disaster.
     And in most cases, both the abductee and the investigator come away
from the hypnosis session feeling that they have discovered the truth
about the experience.  Rationalization leads them to believe that the
aliens' purposes must be scientifically objective or benevolent.  The
less threatening and more benevolent the hypnotically recalled event
seems, the more satisfied are the investigator and the abductee.  "That
wasn't so bad, now, was it?  These beings are our friends, or at least
they are not our enemies."  And everyone goes away with a sense of
relief.  I have yet to hear of a researcher who actually questions the
uncovered scenario.
     But from several recent cases, it is apparent that these recovered
memories may well also be yet another screen, masking events that are
much more reprehensible.  I will explain one such case, to make the
point clear.

A STRANGE REPORT.

     A man in his late 40's came to us to explore several alien- related
events in his life, and in the interview he told of a strange, although
not apparently alien-oriented, episode that had haunted him since
childhood.  When he was ten years old, his grandmother came to visit in
his home, and since the house was small, she shared his bed on the first
night of her visit.
     During the night, the boy was awakened by a loud male voice. He
couldn't understand what the voice was saying, but it sounded angry and
was addressing the grandmother lying beside him.
     The next morning, he asked his grandmother, "What was that voice in
the bedroom last night?"
     His grandmother, with tears in her eyes, pulled him tightly to her
and said, "That was the devil."  She said nothing more about the
episode, but she did insist that her son take her back to her own home
immediately.  It was an unreasonable request, and her son tried to talk
her out of it.  But the grandmother was adamant, and finally her son
agreed to take her home the following day.
     The entire family made the trip of over a hundred miles back to the
grandmother's farm, and within an hour of their arrival, the grandmother
suffered a massive stroke and died.  Ever since that event, the man had
felt a heavy burden of guilt associated with his grandmother's death.
Yet there was no conscious reason for him to have felt that way.  The
entire event was poignant and mystifying, but in all the alien
encounters he had subsequently undergone, he had felt that the aliens
were his friends and were helping him by expanding his psychic
abilities.
     A regression session was arranged, and in the course of the
hypnosis, he was asked to look at that childhood experience. What he
recalled was an abduction in which he and his grandmother were taken to
a spacecraft in the company of reptilian aliens. He remembered the
aliens telling his grandmother that they were interested in learning
about her knowledge of medicinal herbs.
     And they offered to exchange medical information of their own.
     They gave the boy and the grandmother a liquid to drink, explaining
that it was beneficial and would make the grandmother feel young and
attractive again.  So both of them drank the liquid, and the man
remembered seeing his grandmother indeed looking much younger.  That was
the extent of his recollection.
     Both he and Ms. Bartholic, who was conducting the regression, were
puzzled by this, because there was nothing in the episode to account for
the guilt he had felt about the grandmother's death.  So Ms. Bartholic
deepened the man's trance level and asked him to look at it again, with
much clearer vision.  And what he then recalled was much more
disturbing.

--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network (901)-785-4943 (88:88/0)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1689)  Sun 7 Feb 93 21:40
By: John Powell
To: All
Re: Abduction Article II, 6/6
St:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The abduction, at first, followed his initial recollection. But
when the liquid was drunk, he now remembered a very strong feeling of
change in his body.  And he saw that the grandmother didn't actually
look younger.  Instead, she was placed on a table and approached by one
of the reptilian aliens who wanted to have intercourse with her.  The
liquid had acted as an aphrodisiac, yet the grandmother resisted and
said that since her husband's death she would not have sex with anyone.
The reptilian laughed and disappeared from the room momentarily.  When
he returned, he was accompanied by a man who looked exactly like the
dead husband.
     At this point, the grandmother agreed to have sex, but as the act
was in progress, she suddenly realized that the image of her dead
husband was a cruel illusion.  It was actually the reptilian on top of
her, and she cried out in great resistance for him to leave her alone.
Once he was finished with her, he lifted up the little boy and placed
him on top of the grandmother, forcing another sex act upon the both of
them.
     Then the grandmother was removed from the table and the little boy
was victimized himself by the reptilian, forced to have anal and oral
sex.  The grandmother protested violently, pushing the reptilian away
from her grandson and interposing her body between them.  "By Jesus,"
she shouted, "you will not touch this boy!"
     That must have been the wrong thing to say, because the reptilian
became very angry and threatened her.  "You will die for that!" he told
her, and the two people were returned to the bedroom from which they'd
been taken.  The next morning, the grandmother told the little boy that
the devil had been there the night before, and that was when she
insisted upon being taken home.  And, as it turned out, she did die
immediately thereafter.
     This, then, was the cause of the man's lifelong sense of guilt
about her death.  He had been forced to have sex with her, and her death
had followed shortly after.  But none of this story would have emerged
if Ms. Bartholic had done as most investigators do and stopped the
regression after uncovering the story about the exchange of medicinal
knowledge.
     There are other cases in our files that show a similar deception at
work in the initial hypnotic recall.  We cannot trust that first memory,
it is clear, for like so much else in the abduction experience, there
may well be further maskings of events.
     Before we allow ourselves to believe in the benevolence of the
alien interaction, we should ask, do enlightened beings need to use the
cover of night to perform good deeds?  Do they need to paralyze us and
render us helpless to resist?  Do angels need to steal our fetuses?  Do
they need to manipulate our children's genitals and probe our rectums?
Are fear, pain and deception consistent with high spiritual motives?


--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network (901)-785-4943 (88:88/0)


*** EOF ***


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Don

--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:13395 alt.conspiracy:22996 sci.skeptic:38683
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!darwin.sura.net!cs.ucf.edu!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: HUFON article on abductions
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 02:58:51 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 119

Kind thanks to Vince Johnson of HUFON who posted this to Fido UFO.

--------------------------------------------------------------------


AREA:UFO
Thu 4 Feb 93 13:32
By: Vince Johnson
To: All
Re: HUFON Abduction Investigation
St:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following file is courtesy of HUFON REPORT, the newsletter of the
Houston UFO Network. For more information, call [phone].


HUFON Abductions Investigation Update
by Vince Johnson


Master hypnotherapist Derrell Sims has been taking a different approach to
the abduction phenomenon. Sims uses forensic hypnotic regression as well as
a barrage of other techniques to break through induced amnesia and screen
memories that mask the abduction experiences of his clients, who usually
come to him only knowing that they experienced something weird, like missing
time, or paint mysteriously bubbling off their car at night. "When someone
comes to me and says 'I've been abducted by aliens,' it's almost always
fantasy or delusion," says Sims.

He takes a different approach, however, by utilizing "active measures" to
deal with abductees' interactions with their abductors. As chairman of
HUFON's Abductions Investigation Committee, Sims, along with his research
assistants Patrice Eldridge and Dale Musser, provide an abductions support
group for Houston-area abductees.

He is not exactly awed in his opinion of the mysterious entities that
reportedly kidnap people, and take them aboard flying saucers to conduct
medical procedures indicative of a genetic engineering / cross-breeding
project.

"First of all, they're stupid--they make mistakes," says Sims. He goes on to
describe instances where the otherworldly visitors make surprisingly dumb
errors, such as when one of his clients was a little girl and was taken
aboard a UFO in her tee shirt, and was later returned wearing a man's
oversized military jacket. Sims assumes that somewhere, a soldier awakened
to find himself squeezed into the child's tee shirt, and is currently
attempting to locate the man. Another case in point concerned Mr. Sims' own
abduction experience as a youth in New Mexico. He had been target shooting,
and when he suddenly came out of a trancelike state, he saw a grey "alien"
a short distance away. Says Sims, "I'm sure they did not intend for me to
come out of the trance state with a loaded rifle in my hands."

Like many abductees, Mr. Sims' children were at risk for abduction; his son
has also experienced the phenomenon.

Mr. Sims' case load exploded after the airing of the CBS mini-series of Budd
Hopkins' "Intruders." Some of the abductees who have come forward have
presented some remarkable medical evidence, such as the mother and daughter
whose x-rays reveal tiny T-shaped implants in their feet. He is currently
arranging for interested M.D.s to extract these implants for analysis.

According to Sims, "They seem to be discontinuing the use of metallic
implants in favor of organic implants, which are much harder for us to
detect."  Increased frequency of sightings of UFOs by abductees indicate
that the organic implants are not as efficient as the metallic ones, and
that UFOs must be closer to the abductees to "download" the data collected
by the implants. Sims believes that all UFO sightings are abduction-related,
and surmises that, "they're not here sightseeing."

One problem with recovering implants seems to be a reluctance on the part of
the abductees to have them removed. "Abductees have received a very strong
hypnotic suggestion not to tamper with them, they'll come up with a variety
of reasons not to have them removed," says Sims.

Like fighting fire with fire, Mr. Sims is attempting to establish post-
hypnotic suggestions in the abductees in order to establish a channel of
communication with the abducting entities. Another area of his research is
in attempting abduction intervention. This has met with some success; one
abductee who was hypnotically "programmed" to resist was able to thwart an
abduction attempt.

The HUFON abductions investigation team is compiling a personality profile on
abductees. One interesting common denominator among abductees in this study
is that many have the same rare allergy.

High strangeness is apparently the norm in abductions research. Several of
Sims' clients have reported "peripheral people," i.e., men-in-black (MIBs),
zombielike people, and even an "alien woman" wearing a cheap wig and driving
a red Escort! Persons unfamiliar with abductions research might scoff at such
claims, except that several of the abductees have reported the same entities
in different states and years apart.

At a recent HUFON event entitled "Working with the Abductees," Mr. Sims
presented a panel of six abductees who answered questions from a sometimes
skeptical audience. The abductees revealed themselves to be articulate,
rational, and convincing. Far from being self-proclaimed heralds of some
"Cosmic Brotherhood," they were just as puzzled about the phenomenon as the
rest of the audience.

Persons desiring more information, or wishing to report an anomalous
experience can contact Derrell Sims at [phone], or Patrice Eldridge at
[phone], or by writing c/o HUFON, P.O. Box 942, Bellaire TX 77402-
0942.

End of File


---
 * Origin: ParaNet - Leading UFO Research - 303-431-8797 (1:104/422.0)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don

--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13981 alt.alien.visitors:13396
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!darwin.sura.net!cs.ucf.edu!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Don Allen
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 03:26:19 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>According to [e-mail] (Don Allen):
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>>>Yes, it's said to be a forgery by the Czarist secret police. Certainly
>>>it reads as if this were true. It tries to make people think 'the Jews
>>>are your enemy, but the Aristocracy is your friend'.
>>
>>My *favorite* Bill Cooper story [...]
>
>But, Don!  What do you think of the Protocols?  Perspiring minds want
>to know!

I think I liked Steve Crocker's analysis in a thread on alt.conspiracy
on the whole matter. Machivellian indeed.

Don


--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:13397 alt.conspiracy:22997 sci.skeptic:38684
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!darwin.sura.net!cs.ucf.edu!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: Possible Wackenhut/FEMA connection to UFO's? - Martin
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 02:49:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 258

Hi Folks,

This is part of a thread from Fido UFO. It has to do with Wackenhut's
*connection* to UFO related sites (Area 51/Lockheed-Northrup "Ant Hill")
and FEMA. Maybe something here. Included is an article by Harry Martin
of the NAPA Valley Sentinel. Harry says that Wackenhut has their _own_
UFO.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

AREA:UFO
Sat 6 Feb 93  8:54
By: Steve Jones
To: All
Re: The Napa Secret Installation- Article
St:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following article has been reproduced with express permission of it's
author, Harry V. Martin, editor and publisher of the Napa Sentinel.  He
has also given permission to distribute this information to anyone reading
it.  His primary goal is that the people be informed.

  Steve Jones-  Sacramento UFO Group

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


                       By Harry V. Martin

  While KVON radio's news department and the "Johnny-come-lately Napa Valley
Register wallow in whether or not a telephone tower in Sonoma County has
anything to do with increased flight of helicopters in Napa County, the
Sentinel has obtained over 200 pages of unclassified and secret documents
which outline the purpose of a special communications and government
continuity base in the Napa Hills.
  The documents- which focus on 26 unclassified reports, 1 "for official use"
report, and 14 secret reports, relate specifically to continuity of government
and emergency telecommunications systems.  Participating with the government
is [sic] this classified nationwide emergency telecommunications Service for
National Security Telecommunications ITT,AT&T,COMSAT, MCII [sic] and TRT.
  Plans went into motion in 1988 and 1989 to ensure national and international
communications and the continuity of government in case of war or disaster.
The plan is being implimented throughout the nation, with similar helicopter
traffic and construction of facilities.  For national security reasons, much
work is done in secret.
  The National Security Telecommunications Advisory Commission reactivated
the Commercial Satellite Survivability Task Force to assist the government and
recommending secured telecommunications systems that would survive any
disaster.  The systems are used not only in case of war, but also when
disasters such as hurricanes, floods, or earthquakes destroy exsisting
commerical telecommunications facilities.
  The government asked the group for international augmentation from an inter-
exchange carrier switch via and international gateway satellite earth station.
The foriegn end users identified in the report are senior U.S. civilian and
military officials overseas.  The problem that existed was that foreign
satellites do not operate withthe same type of equipment used in the United
States.  Satellite earth stations working together in an international link
are owned and operated by different companies and agencies.
  When the INTELSAT is used incompatability is at a minimum, but when CCITT
systems are used there are major incompatabilities to be overcome.  The
construction of new systems is part of a 12-point plan:

-That the Government establish a commercial satellite communications
survivability program whcih will satisfy National Security requirements.

-That the Government establsih a Commercial Satellite Survivability (CSS)
Program Office to co-ordinate the program within the Government.

-That the CSS Program Office, in conjunction with the planning arm of the
NCM, should undertake a program to develop emergency control plans and
procedures to assure the capability to coordinate the rstoration of
commercial satellite communications systems under emergency conditions.

-The development of a capability for communications interoperability at
critical earth stations to maintain emergency communications networks.

-The development of a capability utilizing the Data Encryption Standard
algorithm to protect critical digital communications links if communications
protection over commercial satellite systems is required by the Government.

-The development of a capability to enhance the survivability of satellite
control systems through actions to achieve command link protection.

-The development of control interoperability between satellite systems to
control the commercial communications satellite asets under emergency
conditions.

-The development of capabilities which increase physical security of satellite
control facilities and communications earth stations.

-The CSS Program Office should initiate a study chich would assess the
susceptibility of exsisting commercial satellite communications systems to
nuclear effects and rpovide recommendations which would establish hardening
guidelines for further commercial satellite programs.

-Development of a transportable terminal capability to enhance survivability
and restoral of critical satellite communications systems.

-Enhancement of control survivability through the development of transportable
TT&C terminal facilities.

-Development of a capability for Ku-band communications interoperability
at critcal earth stations to maintain emergency communications networks.

  Napa is not alone in this area in participation of the program, units
exsist through Pac Bell's access tandem in Vallejo and also in Benicia and
Santa Rosa.  These units can patch in or over disrupted communication
ground lines.  The main continental United States (CONUS) focuses on the
west coast traveling to the east coast and back again.  CONUS contour maps
show a major segment of that critical beam is located in or near Napa.
  On Tuesday, the Sentinel published an article outlining the purposes and
scope of the local project and it's relationship with the helicopter traffic.
In summary, the article stated that the purpose of a secret installation
in Napa served by the helicopters was for:

-Direct satellite communications.
-Continuity of the U.S. Government in case of nuclear attack or other
 upheaval.
-Secure communications links with the outside world in the evnet of a
 disaster.

  The helicopter traffic over the last year has been provisioning an
elaborate underground complex designed to hold government officials,
scientists and other high echelon personnel in the event of an emergency-
similar facilities are active all over the United States.  The local
installation is combining and replacing installations from Benicia to
underground railroad tunnels in Ukiah.
  There is no sinister plot involved [*].  The site was selected because Napa
is considered to be safe from nuclear fallout zone.
EDITOR'S NOTE:  Harry Martin was formerly the editorial director of
"Military Electronics Countermeasures","Defense Electronics","Microwave
Systems News","International Countermeasures Handbook", and publisher of
"Defense Systems Review and Military Communications"

(end of article)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
* This statement runs contrary to what Harry has told me in private.  It is
his opinion that they are preparing to take a hit.  Think about the
implications of this.  Napa is only 15 miles from Mare Island, a fairly large
U.S. Naval facility.  It is only 45 miles from Lawrence-Livermore.  If Mare
Island took a nuclear hit, the Napa facility would be so radioactive that
IMHO, they wouldnt survive (but who am I to know).  The point here is that
I really don't think that this facility was designed or located to provide
safety from a nuclear hit.  A political or economic upheaval???  Or a very
traumatic public panic???  Now that is much more plausible of a scenerio and
IMHO quite possible.  The facility is close enough for those whom it was
intended for to make it inside in time for the doors to close.  I have
personally inspected some of the WWII German bunkers that were built in
Hamburg and Bremen to protect their submarines.  The walls are 30 feet thick,
with reinforcement steel every 12 inches.  Those bunkers are still there today.

  Sincerely  Steve Jones-  Sacramento UFO Group

... Mr. President-There's a small grey fellow at the door-the rent's due!
--- Cut Here ---
 * Origin: Gates of Delirium: [phone]: (1:203/163.0)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat 6 Feb 93  6:38
By: Steve Jones
To: Clark Matthews
Re: Your Recent Posts Re:Mind Control/FEMA/Wackenhut & they're UFO Link
St:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings Clark-
    I have just finished reading several of your posts regarding the
possible relations between Wackenhut/FEMA/Mind Control and the UFO
Phenomenon.  A great deal of what you have stated I am in agreement
with.  Ironically I have come to my own conclusions in a somewhat
indirect way.  I have known about the FEMA camps for over a year
(in fact Dan Brown and I went down to Oakdale CA looking for the
facility that INS and several law enforcement agencies say is there,
but we have yet to find it.  We are still looking for it.)  I have collected
a fair amount on the Inslaw/Casolaro/Wackenhut case and until recently
didn't make the possible connection to UFO's.  I just thought that it
was another ultra right wing "we can do anything that we want, the hell
with law,morals, ethics or for that matter the law of the land" operation.
But knowing how fanatical right wingers are about knowing everything that
there is to know, especially when related to keeping an iron fist on folks,
it makes sense that they should be in the driver's seat when it comes to
UFO knowledge.
    My logic, which I have expressed several times here on this echo is as
follows:  1) If your people are in control of the foundations of economic
development within a culture, then what methods would you use to maintain
the status quo?  2)  Given that you have the power to exercise these
economic control mechanisms, what sort of social control mechanisms would
be needed to augment this system if there is a clear and present threat to
your position of power?  As far as I am concerned it is the age
old "Who has the Motive and the Methods question?"  To me it is highly
unlikely that non-extremist elements in our society could have controlled
this information for this long.  These folks are motivated beyond your
normal everyday profit motive.  This is a very high stakes power game and
they do not intend to loose, even though there is a very good chance that
they may be outgunned (if, in fact UFO's are real, which at this point I
consider a mute question).  Personally I see us in a very similar situation
that the North American Indians were in when the European cultures started
to move over here.  Perhaps we can appreciate the agony that they went through
as the very foundations of their culture were threatened?  Just a thought.
Our present culture has gone through several shockwaves in past history
related to influxes of "outside cultures" (i.e. the Irish, the Asians,etc)
and I see this as more of the same, but considerably stranger.
    Down through history, the elements of a particular culture that have been
more dramatically effected by this sort of culture shock have been the
conservative elements.  An analogy-in mechanics, the more capable that a
mechanism is of absorbing shock, the more likely that it will survive
a self-destruction event.  These folks are so tightly screwed together that
they tend to go to extremes to maintain control.  By this I am talking about
the cultural development of extreme belief systems.  To an extent, extreme
liberals are very similar.  In my study of the mystical cults here in
Northern California I have found distinctive philosophical patterns.  For
example, IMHO the folks that make up the Lemurian Brotherhood and the
Great White Brotherhood follow along in the very tightly screwed together
conservative mold.  They have UFO elements within their belief systems,
but they are in the form of robed tall human types who are "ascended MASTERS."
The masters tell them how to think and how to develop.  Now, I do not have
a problem with many of the mystical philosophies which encorporate the
concepts of guides, who show the way.  I do have a problem with dogmatic
types that TELL me what I am to believe.  I also do not have a problem with
those great teachers who are easily recognized as being masters of this
environment.
    IMHO, and these factors have been discussed at length at SUFOG meetings
is the useage of belief systems manipulation within the UFO phenomenon to
"steer" our culture.  As I have pointed out here several times, this is
how a shaman fits within a society.  He is the driver, the engine so to
speak, for change, or the lack of it, within a society.  Listen to
"Black Elk Speaks" and you will see what I mean.  Granted I am not as
knowledgeable of these factors as Robin Gober or John Stepanski, but I have
received a fair amount of education, as well as personal experience in these
elements.
    Wackenhut, IMHO is a direct offshoot of this type of socio-economic
matrix.  As I have pointed out, they are, as you have so appropriately pointed
out, the "shock troops" of the holders of the torch.  Their private army,
the useage of the Inslaw software, the useage of AFOSI to contaminate and
disinform, the functional useage of the FEMA camps to "cull" and finally
their construction of these multi-million dollar underground "digs" as
hideaways forms a very logical picture.  This picture has "damage control"
written all over it.  The big problem is that the areas covered by this damage
control are very limited indeed.

   Sincerely-  Steve Jones-  Co-Moderator-  Sacramento UFO Group



... The best way to solve a puzzle? Make sure that you have ALL the parts!
--- Cut Here ---
 * Origin: Gates of Delirium: [phone]: (1:203/163.0)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don


--
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: CITE: Jacques Vallee on MJ-12 Docs - REVELATIONS
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 02:55:02 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 138

Hi Folks,

I often get asked as to whether the infamous MJ-12 docs are authentic
or hoaxed. The general consensus is that they are fraudulent documents
to most people who research the topic. I like to cite this particular
excerpt in Valle's book, "Revelations" that puts it in perspective.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

AREA:UFO
Mon 8 Feb 93  0:50
By: Don Allen
To: Edward Swaim
Re: MJ12,  area51,  etc.
St: Local Sent
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 >        Nobody proved it was fake.  I was merely repeating hearsay--
 > just as everyone else in the UFO business does...

Well, I do know that the consensus is that it's most likely faked
but Caped Crusader Stanton Friedman would differ with you <g>.

Here's what Jacques Vallee wrote about it in "Revelations"

========================================================================

Excerpt from  "Revelations" , by Jacques Vallee from Chapter 2,
"Majestic 12"

** Begin excerpt **


ln December 1984 an anonymously mailed package reached Los Angeles
television producer Jaime Shandera. In it was a roll of undeveloped film
that turned out to contain eight pages of information, evidently from a
November 1952 classified document. It included a cover letter addressed to
President Eisenhower and mentioned top secret data about the crash of an
unidentified flying object at Roswell, New Mexico.

Revelation of the existence of these documents by Jaime Shandera, Bill
Moore, and Stanton Friedman elicted various reactions among UFO enthusiasts.
Most of them said, "We told you so! The proof of the coverup is at hand at
last."

Others, suspecting that the three researchers might be the targets of a
manipulation or a hoax, wisely withheld comment. Skeptics like Phillip Klass
went so far as to suggest that Bill Moore had manufactured the documents and
mailed them to his friend. Accusations flew back and forth, becoming
increasingly technical. Did the font of the typewriter match the machines
used at the time? Did the style of the dates correspond to the correct
military format, to the personal habits of the alleged official authors, or
more prosaically, to one of the suspected perpetrators of a hoax? One of the
early believers, ufologist Stanton Friedman, obtained a $16,000 grant from
Dr. Bruce Maccabee's Fund for UFO Research to study the matter in depth.
Predictably, his conclusion, released in mid-1990, was that the documents
were genuine, but he brought no new evidence to prove it. The controversy
may never be completely resolved, but it did produce some very interesting
facts and some even more fascinating questions.

According to Stanton Friedman, there are three primary "MJ-12" texts. The
roll of film received by Shandera contained a document entitled "Briefing
for President-Elect Eisenhower, " dated November 18, 1952, consisting of
eight pages. The last page was a memo under President Truman's signature to
Secretary of Defense James Forrestal, dated September 24, 1947. These two
items were the extent of the initial "leak."

Sensational confirmation of their validity seemed to come to light when a
third unsigned document was found in the National Archives. Dated July 14,
1954, it was a memo from Robert Cutler, Eisenhower's Special Assistant for
National Security, to General Nathan Twining Air Force Chief of Staff. It
read, "The President has decided that the MJ-12 SSP briefing should take
place during the already scheduled White House meeting of July 16 rather
than following it as previously intended." Cutler did not sign the document,
but his name and title are typed at the bottom of the page. The expression
"MJ 12" referred to the Majestic Twelve, a group of experts secretly
studying UFO evidence.

According to Friedman, this document could not have been planted in the
National Archives because, "it was in a classified box in a classified
vault." This statement only makes sense if we assume that the individual
responsible for the planting did not have access to the classified box in
question. If MJ-12 is an inside job, designed and executed by a rogue group
within the intelligence community-which is the most likely explanation
today-then Friedman's argument is obviously flawed. There are other reasons
to believe that MJ-12 is a fake. Queried about this particular document, the
Archives issued a memorandum, dated July 22, 1987, and signed by Jo Ann
Williamson, Chief of the Military Reference Branch, pointing out that "this
particular document poses problems" for many different reasons. It does not
bear a top secret register number, an official government letter-head or a
watermark, it is the only document referring to MJ-12 in the folder in
question; a search for other relevant documents has located nothing; and the
marking TOP SECRET RESTRICTED INFORMATION was not used during the Eisenhower
administration (it only came into use at the National Security Council under
Nixon). Furthermore, there are no records of an NSC meeting on July 16,
1954. Robert Cutler was visiting military installations in Europe and North
Africa on the day he was supposed to have issued the memorandum.

In other words, the National Archives does not believe the memorandum is
genuine. This does not mean, of course, that some project called MJ-12 does
not or did not, exist. Nor does it resolve the larger issue of the possible
existence of aliens, dead or alive. It only deepens the mystery and it
raises new questions.

Among the new questions is the identity and motivation of the sender.

If we are dealing with a genuine Deep Throat, why does he (or she) choose
people like Shandera,Moore and Friedman, who are obscure as far as the
national media are concerned? Why not select a well-known journalist, a
reputable science writer, or an established, credible scientist? It he has
decided to work exclusively with, people in the UFO field, he still has a
wide choice of targets, including some who have the ability to check up and
convince themselves of the genuineness of such documents. Yet our mystery
source selected a group that was likeIy to accept the information
uncritically, people had already staked a definitive position on the alleged
cover-up and would find it very conveniently confirmed by the documents.
Predictably, he missed his objective of convincing the nation that M1J-12
was genuine: only a handful of hardcore believers have accepted Friedman's
conclusions. This is not the way the Deep Throat of Watergate proceeded. He
sought out the most influential of Washington media, selected two aggressive
investigative journalists, and encouraged them to ask their own questions
(his recommendation to "follow the money!" was a major key). The MJ-12
source operates as the manipulator of a contrived disinformation leak rather
than as a real whistleblower with something at stake, or as the deeply
concerned person who has decided to expose a genuine scandal once and for
all.

** End excerpt **

Don

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: * On Topic? What's that? <*> Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:123/26.1)

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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: Review of Mexican UFico UFO video - HUFON
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 02:43:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: PLENTY OF VIDEO
Lines: 172

Hi Folks,

Here's a HUFON report and review on some available video on the UFO's
over Mexico.

Forwarded from Fido UFO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

AREA:UFO
Thu 4 Feb 93 13:29
By: Vince Johnson
To: All
Re: Mexico City Sightings
St:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following file is courtesy of HUFON REPORT, the newsletter of the
Houston UFO Network. For more information, call [phone].

Messengers of Destiny
Reviewed by David Mayo

What can one say about some of the most fantastic visual evidence of
sky-bound anomalies ever recorded?  Weeks ago, when I first received the
mail-order offer from Genesis III Productions, I was reluctant to order.
As most of you know, there is a glut of UFO material out there, but little
is of any significance.  Ufology is a science most everyone loves to ridicule
and there is no shortage of scam artists eager to make a buck off information
-hungry UFO enthusiasts.  I had convinced myself this offer was just such a
ruse, when a few days later, an associate I trust asked me if I had heard of
the Mexico City sightings.  He insisted that when anything on this became
available, I should purchase it post haste.  As anyone who attended Houston
UFO Network's January meeting highlighting this tape would agree, this was
very good advice.  The video, "Messengers of Destiny," is by far the best
daylight UFO footage I have ever seen!

The tape, co-produced by Lee Elders and Jaime Maussan and narrated by Brit
and Lee Elders, begins with references to Mayan prophesies and, in
particular, those found on the Dresde Codex (755 AD.), ancient Mayan stone
tablets that speak of future events, and the Sun Rock, also known as the
Aztec Calendar.  Their hieroglyphics supposedly state that the July 1991 sun
(or solar eclipse) would usher in two life-altering events:  Earth changes
and cosmic awareness in the form of an encounter with the masters of the
stars.

According to legend, the first sun ended with devastating winds; the second
with fiery rain; the third with darkness;  and the fourth sun with water,
believed by some to be the Biblical Flood.  The fifth sun was to end with
devastating earthquakes, thought to be the massive Mexican earthquake of
1985.

Scientists had eagerly awaiting the 1991 eclipse, calling it the eclipse of
the millennium due to its unusually long expected duration of six minutes and
45 seconds over land.  It was a given that this solar eclipse would be highly
scrutinized and recorded.

Shortly after 1 p.m. on July 11, 1991, individuals with cameras and
camcorders waited with anticipation for the eclipse to begin.  At 1:22 p.m.,
people began to notice a silvery object in the sky hanging motionless below
the eclipsed sun.  By 1:24 p.m., the sun was in full eclipse and the object
had caught many people's attention.  By 1:27 PM, the sun began to reveal
itself as the eclipse waned as cameras and camcorders were aimed at  the
first mass-photographed daylight disk.

The videos show a silvery object hanging below the eclipsing sun.  As one
who has admittedly become bored with lights in the sky, these daylight shots
have a sense of reality about them that is both exciting and astonishing.
During the course of viewing this tape, over 40 clips of UFOs consisting of
four daylight varieties and one interesting nighttime configuration are
presented.  The one seen during the solar eclipse was a short "top-hat"
design, sporting a smooth silver surface and a darker lower flange.  The
second appeared as a flattened spinning top; the third as a sombrero (large
thin flange with a small dome on top); and the fourth was similar in design
to one of Billy Meier's beamships photographed in Switzerland.  Some of the
night shots showed an object banking in the dark sky revealing the familiar
triangular pattern of lights made famous by the Belgium flap of recent years.

The Elders owe a great deal of gratitude to Jaime  Maussan, the chief
investigative reporter and editor of "60 Minutos," a popular Mexican
television show patterned after "60 Minutes."  Shortly after the events
during the solar eclipse, Maussan took it upon himself to assign a news team
to the investigation of these UFOs.  He also appeared on "Siempre &
Domingos," another popular TV program.  He showed footage of the silver ship
and asked the viewing audience to please send him any videos that had been
taken of the UFOs.  The TV station was swamped with phone calls, resulting
in hundreds of videos sent to Mr. Maussan.

Among some of the stranger outcomes of this request for evidence was footage
from a town 85 miles from Mexico City where an identical daylight disk was
seen and recorded at the same moment!  Another clip shows a UFO performing
(according to the Elders' interpretation) a "hyper-jump" as it stretches and
streaks away within a split second.

The best of the video evidence was gathered by the Elders and made available
for analysis.  Optical enhancement , as analyzed on camera by H. David
Froning, director of Flight Unlimited (and a scientist friend of the Elders),
shows that the UFO is rotating and occasionally throwing off a multi-colored
corona. The Mexican UFOs are similar, if not identical to, aerial objects
that are being seen in Japan and the Commonwealth of Independent States.

On May 8, 1992, at the Elders invitation, a NIPPON TV research team from
Japan arrived to study the situation.  It had been determined that many
sightings suggested a flight path along the Volcano Zone, a string of dormant
volcanoes that include Mount Txtaccihuatl and Mount Popocatepetl, which lie
between Mexico City and Pueblo.  After speaking to a city mayor and a police
chief (who. along with local media, were all very open to the phenomenon) the
team left for Mount Popocatepetl and set-up camp.  That night, they witnessed
and videotaped the strange triangular lights of the UFO.

There were several significant event dates that followed the Mexico City
sightings.  On September 16, 1991, Mexican National Independence Day, a
parade of marching troops, military jet and helicopter fly-bys, etc. was
being covered by a reporter videotaping the parade activities.  He noticed,
and then recorded, a silvery object close to a formation of 24 air force
fighters.  Moments later, five fighters broke formation and gave chase, but
the UFO accelerated to the northeast and disappeared.  Optical enhancement
revealed the same now-familiar UFO.

On Nov. 23, 1991 and 7000 miles away, a Japanese couple videotaping the
erupting Mt. Unsen, caught sight of a silver shape floating below the
crescent moon.  They filmed it for nearly an hour, then stopped as they grew
weary.  The next morning, to their surprise, the UFO still floated in the
morning sky!  Again, it was the same familiar UFO.

On March 4, 1992, the Aircraft Control Tower in Mexico City recorded a group
of UFOs on their radar screens.  The blips stayed for 40 minutes.

It is the producers opinion that the arrival of the UFOs, in conjunction
with the Mayan prophesy, suggests that there will soon be a major volcanic
eruption.  In fact, Mount Popocatepetl began steaming for the first time in
years just after the arrival of the UFOs. The area between the two volcanoes
is the Pass of Cortez, an area previously devastated by volcanic eruptions.

The Mexico government put enough stock in the Mayan prophesies to issue some
public warnings.  To quote the prologue from the tape:
"In May of 1992, the Mexican government warned the population of 40 cities
to prepare for the possible catastrophic eruption of the awakening volcanoes.
The newspaper, El Universario, carried the article on the front page.  In
August of 1992, "60 Minutos" presented a one-hour program on the volcanoes,
stressing the need for preparedness in the face of an imminent disaster.

Although there is no evidence of a cover-up in Mexico, the news of this
historical sighting has inexplicably stopped at our border.

"Messengers of Destiny" Update
I spoke to Lee Elders on January 15.  He and Brit had just returned from
Mexico covering what has become Phase Two of this incredible UFO flap.
On January 1, the UFOs returned, but now there are as many as eight daylight
disks hovering in the Mexican skies.  Lee said they have videotapes of
traffic jams caused by drivers and passengers exiting their automobiles to
get a look at the strange disks.  This new wave is being seen by a massive
number of people.  Lee also spoke of his prized video possession, daylight
footage of "20 UFOs hovering around a docking station!"

Counting the videos he received from his first trip, he now has over 700
tapes of which, by his count, 200 are of very good quality.  Of those 200,
half are excellent daylight shots.  The Elders are producing a second tape
covering the ongoing Mexico sightings and plan on marketing it this summer.

End of File

---
 * Origin: ParaNet - Leading UFO Research - 303-431-8797 (1:104/422.0)

** EOF **


--
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries Feb. 3
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 03:44:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>>What's going on??  I hav'nt seen any thing about the UM program last night.
>
>Well, the UFO guy that spoke in Seattle 2/5 explained they got the UM
>story wrong.  He claims that he was the one (He = Bill Knell) has the
>original video taken by a farmer.  Supposedly, the story is a bit different
>than the one told on tv.  Bill indicated that the video was 'stolen' from
>him and given to UM.  He didn't give any details, though.  He showed the
>video there and it didn't have any sound, either.
>
>Rick
>
>
>--
>Rick Pavek                       | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
>[e-mail]    |
>Seattle, WA                      |   It wastes your time
>                                 |          and annoys the droid.


I would take anything that Bill Knell said with a lot of rock salt. He
has been known time and time again to "appropriate" others works and
call them his own. As has Bob Oeschler.

So Bill Knell is saying that Cooper was murdered in his home? Facts
please.

Don


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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: Exploring Unexplained Phenomenon - Schedule
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 03:47:31 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 114

AREA:MUFONET
Tue 2 Feb 93 22:15
By: Bob Dunn
To: All
Re: Eup 5
St:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


                    EXPLORING UNEXPLAINED PHENOMENON V
                       APRIL 30th to MAY 2nd, 1993
                           Lincoln, Nebraska


 CONFIRMED SPEAKERS:

 Dr. John Salter: The Salter UFO Encounters; A Comprehensive Update.
                  Professor and Chair of American Indian Studies at
                  the University of North Dakota, where he teaches a
                  course on UFOs, ETs, and Close Encounters. He will
                  discuss a 1988 UFO encounter and abduction experience
                  he and his son had while driving across Wisconsin.

 Kevin Randle - Stanton Friedman: The Roswell Incident.
                 Kevin Randle is a former Air Force intelligence officer
                 and co-author of the book UFO CRASH AT ROSWELL. Stanton
                 Friedman is a nuclear physicist and co-author of CRASH
                 AT CORONA. Both authors have done extensive research into
                 the alleged crash of a UFO in the New Mexico desert in 1947,
                 and have come to somewhat different conclusions.

 Harry Jordan - Jack Kasher: NASA UFO Images / Iowa Mini-Flap Update.
                 Harry Jordan is a science teacher and founder of the Mars
                 Project in Omaha. Dr. Jack Kasher is a professor of physics
                 and astronomy at the University of Nebraska-Omaha and MUFON
                 state director for Nebraska. Their presentation will be on
                 the videotape taken during a space shuttle flight allegedly
                 showing unidentified objects, and an update on a series of
                 UFO sightings and landing traces in southern Iowa.

 Linda Moulton-Howe: Aliens, Abductions, & Scientific Findings on Crop Circles
                 Winner of local, national, and international awards for her
                 documentaries on science, medicine, and the environment and
                 author of AN ALIEN HARVEST. She will present an update on
                 her current and past research.

 Budd Hopkins: New Revelations About UFO Abductions.
                 The bestselling author of INTRUDERS and MISSING TIME, and one
                 of the researchers most credited with bringing serious
                 attention to UFO abductions.

 Rosemary Ellen Guiley: Crop Circles & Unusual Ground Markings Worldwide.
                 Director of the Center for North American Crop Circle
                 Studies and the author of HARPER'S ENCYCLOPEDIA OF
                 MYSTICAL AND PARANORMAL EXPERIENCE.

 Raymond Boeche: Founder and former director of the Fortean Research
                Center, Ray will be speaking on the continuing mystery
                of the Men In Black.

 REGISTRATION: $45.00
 (Members of the Fortean Research Center receive a $5.00 discount)

 SPEAKING PROGRAM. Each presentation will be for approximately two hours, so
 that an indepth presentation and exchange can occur between the speakers and
 the audience.

 OTHER EVENTS. There will be a dinner Friday night, a tour of haunted and
 ghostly sites around Lincoln, and a Saturday night banquet. Details on
 these events have yet to be finalized, but if you're interested please
 please check the spaces in the registration form and we'll send you infor-
 mation when it's available.

 HOTEL. The Nebraska Center for Continuing Studies at 33rd and Holdredge St.
 Lincoln, Ne. 68583-0901. Phone [phone]. A block of rooms has been
 reserved. Please make your reservations directly with the hotel.

 QUESTIONS? Call Scott Colborn at [phone], Monday through Friday,
 1:00 - 7:00 pm CST. Or write to: THE FORTEAN RESEARCH CENTER
                                  PO BOX 94627
                                  Lincoln, NE. 68509

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Registration received after January 1, 1993:
         Number of people _____ Member $40.00 _____ Non-member $45.00 _____

 Membership in the Fortean Research Center - No. of people _____ $20.00 _____
 Interested in the Friday evening dinner _____
                   Saturday banquet      _____
                   Ghost tour of Lincoln _____

 TOTAL enclosed __________
 Check or money order in U.S. funds, please no cash. Payable to the F.R.C.

 Name ___________________________ Address ___________________________________
 City ___________________________ State _________________ Zip _______________
 Affiliation ____________________________________        PLEASE PRINT
 Photocopies of this form and written orders accepted.

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


  * OLX 2.1 TD * "I'll be Bach!" -- Johann Sebastian Schwarzenegger
  - JetMail v1.14ß8 - Unregistered QWK Mail Door for Spitfire

--- SFScan v1.02
 * Origin: Fortean Research Center [phone] (88:4300/2.0)

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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: Gordon Micheal-Scallion's Predictions - Nexus Excerpt
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 03:50:26 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 355

(3828)  Sun 17 Jan 93 21:56
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: Scallion - 1/3
St: Local Sent                                                            3829>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/[e-mail] 0895d6d9
@PID: FM 2.02
 * Forwarded from "UFO"
 * Originally by Don Allen
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 17 Jan 1993, 21:53

I scanned this excerpt from an article in "Nexus New Times". While the
article is ostensibly about "earth changes" resulting from [predicted]
earthquake activity, it also mentions ET visitations by 1995.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is an excerpt from the article entitled "Earth Changes & Predictions" ,
that appeared in the Oct-Nov 1992 issue of 'Nexus New Times' magazine.
The magazine is published in Australia by Duncan Roads and available
in the USA by:

Connecting Link
9392 Whitneyvills SE.
Alto, Michigan
49302

Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Subscription info: 1 year ( 6 issues ) $45.00

Don rates it "Pretty darned good" :}

This excerpt is about Gordon-Michael Scallion and some of his earthquake
predictions on coming earth changes.

=============================================================================

** Begin excerpt **

---

Enter Gordon-Michael Scallion.

Gordon-Michael Scallion may well be hailed as another Edgar Cayce if his
track record continues the way it's going at the moment. In fact, the
parallels he has to Edgar Cayce are quite uncanny.  For example, in 1979,
Gordon-Michael Scallion lost his voice also, and after a rather unusual
series of events, spent the best part of ten years giving personal readings
for people's heath problems.   Just like Edgar Cayce, Gordon-Michael
Scallion does not consciously remember what is said during his readings, and
as a result tapes all his sessions for going over at a later time.

The predictions pertaining to earth changes are also very similar to  Edgar
Cayce, except that Gordon's predictions are a lot more precise.

So precise in fact, that after the hurricane that hit Florida recently, a
lot of people are now taking him very seriously.

He has accurately predicted nearly every major earthquake, volcano, major
flood for the last few years that I can trace, and has a pretty good track
record on the general economy and socio-political predictions also.

So concerned is he about what he has seen in the future, that he has started
up a non-profit organisation known as The Matrix Institute in Westmoreland,
New Hampshire, USA.  The Matrix Institute has been publishing Gordon's
predictions over the last year in their newsletter, called The Earth Changes
Report. (See details at the end of this article.)

One can obtain these newsletters and verify his accuracy, and one can also
purchase some tape sessions of predictions regarding earth changes in both
America and the rest of the world.

I have encapsulated several hours worth of taped sessions in the following
paragraphs. You will again note the amazing similarity with many other
predictions. I guess time will tell ...

Gordon-Michael Scallion refers to the period from 1991 to 1997 as the "First
Tribulation". According to him this is to be a period of profound change,
both physically, emotionally, economically, socially, and most importantly,
- spiritually. I will do a quick run through each of the continents to give
you an idea of what he is predicting in general terms.

North America:  More earthquake activity especially in California. Judging
from the more recent newsletters, there is currently a prediction 'on the
table' as follows: a 65% chance of two earthquakes before the end of
September '92 one a 7.8 (plus or minus 0.4) on the Richter Scale, epicentre
Sonoma County California, latitude 39" (plus or minus 0.5) approximately 50
miles from the coast; the other near Los Angeles, epicentre within a 100
mile radius of Palm Springs, reaching 8.3 (plus or minus 0.5) on the Richter
Scale.  He also has predicted an earthquake size 7.1 (plus or minus 0.3)
within a 75 mile radius of San Diego before mid-October '92.  He indicates
that should these earthquakes not occur during these "windows" mentioned,
then there is a 95% probability they will occur before May 9th 1993.

Otherwise, North America can expect massive earth changes by or during 1995,
with quakes reaching size 15 on the Richter Scale. In fact he indicates that
earthquakes of this size will be causing major damage world wide, with shock
waves causing many mountain ranges to collapse due to oscillatory resonance
huge tidal waves, flooding etc. etc.  He predicts that California will
become a series of islands, and virtually a complete change of the shape of
the continent of America.


<< cont >>

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(3830)  Sun 17 Jan 93 21:58
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: Scallion - 2/3
St: Local Sent                                                            <3829
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/[e-mail] 0895d6da
@PID: FM 2.02
 * Forwarded from "UFO"
 * Originally by Don Allen
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 17 Jan 1993, 21:54

<< cont from last >>


South/Central America:  Massive earthquake and volcanic activity, resulting
over time with a new inland sea where the Amazon basin is currently
situated.  He indicates that this new inland sea will occupy a size equal to
approximately 10% of the current land mass of that continent.  Many of the
mountain ranges in this continent are forecast to be levelled.

Severe earthquakes in Mexico City. He indicates that an earthquake here of
magnitude size 8.0 or more, will be occurring just before the big ones of
size 15 in California.

Africa: Imagine the letter "Y" and place it over a map of Africa with the
bottom of the 'Y" near Capetown, and this will give you a picture of the
shape of the Africa to emerge. Long waterways dividing the continent into
three land masses. He indicates that the lands of Africa will split due to
movement of the earth's tectonic plate.

Europe:  This is one place I would not want to be if Gordon is right  His
predictions indicate that the "quickest" of the earth changes will occur in
Europe. To be brief, most of Britain, Scotland and Ireland will end up
underwater, as will Spain, Portugal and parts of France, Bulgaria, Morrocco,
Algeria. He predicts that a large portion of northern Europe will sink
beneath the waves over a period of twenty minutes.

Asia: Major inland seas to appear in large parts of Asia. By the end of
1997, Asia is predicted to lose approximately 50% of its land mass. That is
it will be underwater. Japan is predicted to go under water due to a plate
shift over a period of 24 hours!

S.E. Asia:  Major volcanoes, earthquakes, and tidal waves leaves much of
south east Asia uninhabitable or underwater.

Australia/New Zealand:  Guess what?  We miss out on the huge earthquakes and
volcanoes, but we catch a lot of inundation, ie floods and tidal waves due
to the action elsewhere. This is not to say there will not be some plate
activity though. Australia and New Zealand are predicted to emerge as
"vibrant" civilisations of the future.

Antarctica:  Volcanic activity is predicted on this continent, leading to
large scale melting of ice. This will affect the water table levels for many
areas in the region. After some time, this continent becomes fertile once
again, and large masses of people move there.

Middle East:  Gordon predicts that if the Palestinian issue is not settled
by 1993, then we can expect global confict there during or about 1995-1997.
This conflict is predicted to render large portions of this area
uninhabitable for some 50,000 years.

Other:  Gordon predicts that many new land masses will emerge, many with
remnants of ancient and technologically advanced civilisations on them.
These are predicted to open up a new era of technology for mankind.

New land masses are predicted to rise near Australia and New Zealand; also
in the Sargasso Sea; the Atlantic; parts of the Pacific and elsewhere.

A series of seven plagues are forecast during the period of tribulation, we
are currently into three of them at present (AIDS and the new form of
Tuberculosis being two of these three).

By the end of 1995 we will have been openly visited by visitors from the
stars, who have been increasing their contact with humanity gradually over
the past decade or more.

Basically, he summarises his own predictions by indicating that before the
end of 1995, many lands will have split up and gone, new sub-continents will
have been formed, and over 100 major cities will have experienced severe
earthquakes and/or inundation.

Just how accurate is his track record you are wondering before you rush out
to sell your shares in insurance companies.

Well let me put it like this. How many people do you know who predicted Mt
Pinatubo erupting in the Phillipines, Hurricane Andrew hitting Florida, or
the last two sizeable Californian earthquakes (to the hour in one case)?

But he has had a couple of 'misses' as he refers to predictions that did not
materialise. I might point out though that so far, the 'misses' have been
very few, and minor in consequence, that is in terms of earth-changing
potential.

One tiny tidbit that fascinated me about Gordon-Michael Scallion's
predictions though, was his mention of the fact that people would 'feel' the
earth-changes coming before hand.  He indicated that many people would feel
a 'pressure-like sensation in the chest area, and many would feel heart
palpitations, especially before large earthquakes. These, he predicts, will
be felt by many people days and weeks before-hand.

Not many people are aware of the intense magnetic field changes that occur
prior to most earthquakes.  Many species of animals appear to go 'crazy or
'jittery' just before earthquakes, particularly big ones strike in their
local area.  This has been attributed to their sensitivity to the magnetic
feld changes, which undergo a steep rise in intensity before a large
earthquake.


<< cont >>

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(3829)  Sun 17 Jan 93 21:57
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: Scallion - 3/3
St: Local Sent                                                       3828<>3830
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/[e-mail] 0895d6db
@PID: FM 2.02
 * Forwarded from "UFO"
 * Originally by Don Allen
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 17 Jan 1993, 21:55

<< cont from last >>


The subject of heart palpitations prior and during earthquakes by Gordon is
also the topic covered by an esteemed New Zealand scientist, whose brief
article appears in the Science News section of this issue. This is a very
new subject, as the relationship between heart palpitations and earthquakes
has not been previously identified or examined fully.

As editor of a national magazine, I get a lot of mail etc. I have been
recently getting many unsolicited letters from readers who have been having
unusually vivid dreams - especially of tidal waves hitting the east cost of
Australia, or Sydney being destroyed by a huge wave, in the near future.

This is not new to many Australians.  When the infamous channel, Ramtha was
in Australia, he predicted a wave 'taller than the tallest building in
Sydney' hitting Sydney and leaving a new beachfront half-way up the Blue
Mountains.  Edmund Harold, well known English psychic, also with an
interesting track record of predictions has long maintained that a huge
tidal wave will hit Sydney with very little, if any, warning. Even
Aboriginal and Maori 'psychics' have forecast this particular event.

For what it is worth, most of these prophets stress regularly that the
future changes they perceive can be offset or alleviated in terms of
severity of damage.  They maintain that by living in peace, respecting the
interconnectedness of all life, and becoming more aware of our
spirituality, that many of these events will be reduced in magnitude.

What does one do with this information? I am not psychic, but I am starting
to wonder, is this just the regular end of-the-century doomsday fever at
work, or is there some truth to all these predictions? Does our planet go
through regular and sudden massive earth changes, and if so, would this be
'picked up' by some of us beforehand on some psychic level?

If you, as a supposedly normal human being in western society suddenly
started getting visions of the future such as Gordon- Michael Scallion, what
would *you* do with the information?

** End of article **

Bibliography:

Earthquake, Time-Life Books, Amsterdam, 1987.

Mother Shipton's Prophecy, Nexus, Vo1.2. #3.

Vision Tomorrow, by Edmund Harold, Greenhouse Publication, Melbourne, 1988.

Nostradamus: The End of the Millenium, by V.J. Hewitt & Peter Lorie,
Bloomsbury Publishing, UK 1991.

Edgar Cayce On Prophecy, Mary Ellen Carter, Warner Books, USA 1968.

Rolling Thunder-The Coming Earth Changes, J.R. Jochmans, Sun Books, USA
1987.

We Are The Earthquake Generation, J. Goodman, Seaview Books, USA, 1978.

Prophecy And Prediction In The 20th Century, Charles Neilson Gattey, The
Aquarian Press, UK, 1989.

America In Prophecy, E.G. White, Inspiration Books East, USA, 1988.

The Complete Prophecies of Nostradamus, Henry C. Roberts, Grafton Books, UK,
1985.

Pyramid Prophecies, Max Toth, Warner Destiny Books, USA, 1979.

Saint Germain on Prophecy - Coming World Changes, Elizabeth Clare Prophet,
Summit University Press, USA, 1986.

Earth Changes And The New Planet Earth, Paul Solomon, The Master's Press
Publishers, USA, 1979.

The Earth, Past Present And To Come, Teachings and Lectures of Helio-
Arcanophus, Atlanteans Association Ltd, UK, 1976.

Nostradamus - Prophecies Of Present Times?, David Pitt Francis, The Aquarian
Press, UK, 1985.

Dreams Of The Future, Chet B. Snow, The Aquarian Press, UK, 1991.

Oracles of Nostradamus, Chas A. Ward, Health Research, USA, 1974.

The Earth Changes Reports, Gordon Michael Scallion, The Matrix Institute,
RR1 , Box 391, Westmoreland, NH 03466 USA. Tel: [phone].

Last Waltz Of The Tyrants, Judi Pope Koteen, Beyond Words Publishing USA,
1989.

---

** end excerpt **


Don

--- FMail 0.92
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@SEEN-BY: 123/26
@PATH: 123/26
--
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: SPY article on Wackenhut
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 03:53:27 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 557


(3818)  Sun 17 Jan 93 20:49
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: WackenSPY - 1/5
St: Local Sent                                                            3819>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/[e-mail] 089486d7
@PID: FM 2.02
 * Forwarded from "UFO"
 * Originally by Don Allen
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 17 Jan 1993, 20:34

I scanned this in from the Sept 1992 edition of SPY magazine article
on Wackenhut. This will go a long way into explaining "Who is Wackenhut
and what are they up to?"  Not mentioned in this article is the fact that
Wackenhut is also in charge of security at Area-51, the place where
UFO activity has often been sighted.

It's being posted for informational purposes only.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


INSIDE THE SHADOW CIA

by

John Connolly

SPY Magazine - Sept 1992 - Volume 6

============================================================================

What? A big private company - one with a board of former CIA, FBI and
Pentagon officials; one in charge of protecting Nuclear-Weapons facilities,
nuclear reactors, the Alaskan oil pipeline and more than a dozen American
embassies abroad; one with long-standing ties to a radical ring-wing
organization; one with 30,000 men and women under arms - secretly helped
IRAQ in its effort to obtain sophisticated weapons? And fueled unrest
in Venezuela? This is all the plot of a new best-selling thriller,
right? Or the ravings of some overheated conspiracy buff,right? Right?

WRONG.

--

In the WINTER OF 1990, David Ramirez, a 24 year-old member of the Special
Investigations Division of the Wackenhut Corporation, was sent by  his
superiors on an unusual mission. Ramirez a former Marine Corps sergeant
based in Miami, was told to fly immediately to San Antonio along with three
other members of SID-a unit, known as founder and chairman George
Wackenhut's "private FBI," that provided executive protection and conducted
undercover investigations and sting operations. Once they arrived, they
rented two gray Ford Tauruses and drove four hours to a desolate town on the
Mexican border called Eagle Pass. There, just after dark, they met two truck
drivers who had been flown in from Houston. Inside a nearby warehouse was an
18 -wheel tractor-trailer, which the two truck drivers and the four
Wackenhut agents in their rented cars were supposed to transport to Chicago.
"My instructions were very clear," Ramirez recalls. "Do not look into the
trailer, secure it, and make sure it safely gets to Chicago." It went
without saying that no one else was supposed to look in the trailer, either,
which is why the Wackenhut men were armed with fully loaded Remington 870
pump-action shotguns.

The convoy drove for 30 hours straight, stopping only for gas and food. Even
then, one of the Wackenhut agents had to stay with the truck, standing by
one of the cars, its trunk open, shotgun within easy reach. "Whenever we
stopped, I bought a shot glass with the name of the town on it," Ramirez
recalls. "I have glasses from Oklahoma City, Kansas City, St. Louis."

A little before 5:00 on the morning of the third day, they delivered the
trailer to a practically empty warehouse outside Chicago. A burly man who
had been waiting for them on the loading dock told them to take off the
locks and go home, and that was that. They were on a plane back to Miami
that afternoon. Later Ramirez's superiors told him-as they told other SID
agents about similar midnight runs-that the trucks contained $40 million
worth of food stamps. After considering the secrecy, the way the team was
assembled and the orders not to stop or open the truck, Ramirez decided he
didn't believe that explanation.

Neither do we. One reason is simple: A Department of Agriculture official
simply denies that food stamps are shipped that way. "Someone is blowing
smoke," he says. Another reason is that after a six-month investigation, in
the course of which we spoke to more than 300 people, we believe we know
what the truck did contain-equipment necessary for the manufacture of
chemical weapons-and where it was headed: to Saddam Hussein's Iraq. And the
Wackenhut Corporation-a publicly traded company with strong ties to the CIA
and federal contracts worth $200 million a year-was making sure Saddam would
be geting his equipment intact. The question is why. In 1954, George
Wackenhut, then a 34-year old former FBI agent, joined up with three other
former FBI agents to open a company in Miami called Special Agent
Investigators Inc. The partnership was neither successful nor
harmonious-George once knocked partner Ed Dubois unconscious to end a
disagreement over the direction the company would take-and in 1958, George
bought out his partners.

However capable Wackenhut's detectives may have been at their work, George
Wackenhut had two personal attributes that were instrumental in the
company's growth. First, he got along exceptionally well with important
politicians. He was a close ally of Florida governor Claude Kirk, who hired
him to combat organized crime in the state; and was also friends with
Senator George Smathers, an intimate of John F. Kennedy's. It was Smathers
who provided Wackenhut with his big break when the senator's law firm helped
the company find a loophole in the Pinkerton law, the 1893 federal statute
that had made it a crime for an employee of a private detective agency to do
work for the government. Smathers's firm set up a wholly owned subsidiary of
Wackenhut that provided only guards, not detectives. Shortly thereafter,
Wackenhut received multimillion-dollar contracts from the government to
guard Cape Canaveral and the Nevada nuclear-bomb test site, the first of
many extremely lucrative federal contracts that have sustained the company
to this day.

<< cont >>

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(3819)  Sun 17 Jan 93 20:49
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: WackenSPY - 2/5
St: Local Sent                                                       3818<>3820
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/[e-mail] 089486d8
@PID: FM 2.02
 * Forwarded from "UFO"
 * Originally by Don Allen
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 17 Jan 1993, 20:37

<< cont from last >>


The second thing that helped make George Wackenhut successful was that he
was, and is, a hard-line right-winger. He was able to profit from his
beliefs by building up dossiers on Americans suspected of being Communists
or merely left-leaning-"subversives and sympathizers," as he put it-and
selling the information to interested parties. According to Frank Donner,
the author of "Age of Surveillance", the Wackenhut Corporation maintained
and updated its files even after the McCarthyite hysteria had ebbed, adding
the names of antiwar protesters and civil-rights demonstrators to its list
of "derogatory types." By 1965, Wackenhut was boasting to potential
investors that the company maintained files on 2.5 million suspected
dissidents-one in 46 American adults then living. in 1966, after acquiring
the private files of Karl Barslaag; a former staff member of the House
Committee on Un-American Activities, Wackenhut could confidently maintain
that with more than 4 million names, it had the largest privately held file
on suspected dissidents in America. In 1975, after Congress investigated
companies that had private files, Wackenhut gave its files to the
now-defunct anti-Communist Church League of America of Wheaton, Illinois.
That organization had worked closely with the red squads of big-city police
departments, particularly in New York and L.A., spying on suspected
sympathizers; George Wackenhut was personal friends with the League's
leaders, and was a major contributor to the group. To be sure, after giving
the League its files, Wackenhut reserved the right to use them for its
clients and friends.

Wackenhut had gone public in 1965 ; George Wackenhut retained 54 percent of
the company. Between his salary and dividends, his annual compensation
approaches $2 million a year, sufficient for him to live in a $20 million
castle in Coral Gables, Florida, complete with a moat and 18 full-time
servants. Today the company is the third-largest investigative security firm
in the country, with offices throughout the United States and in 39 foreign
countries.

It is not possible to overstate the special relationship Wackenhut enjoys
with the federal government. It is close. When it comes to security
matters, Wackenhut in many respects *is* the government. In 1991, a third of
the company's $600- million in revenues came from the federal government,
and another large chunk from companies that themselves work for the
government, such as Westinghouse.

Wackenhut is the largest single company supplying security to U.S. embassies
overseas; several of the 13 embassies it guards have been in important
hotbeds of espionage, such as Chile, Greece and El Salvador. It also guards
nearly all the most strategic government facilities in the U.S., including
the Alaskan oil pipeline, the Hanford nuclear-waste facility, the Savannah
River plutonium plant and the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

Wackenhut maintains an especially close relationship with the federal
government in other ways as well. While early boards of directors included
such prominent personalities of the political right as Captain Eddie
Rickenbacker; General Mark Clark and Ralph E. Davis, a John Birch Society
leader, current and recent members of the board have included much of the
country's recent national-security directorate: former FBI director Clarence
Kelley; former Defense secretary and former CIA deputy director Frank
Carlucci: former Defense Intelligence Agent director General Joseph Carroll;
former U.S. Secret Service director James J. Rowley; former Marine
commandant P. X. Kelley; and acting chairman of President Bush's foreign-
intelligence advisory board and former CIA deputy director Admiral Bobby Ray
Inman. Before his appointment as Reagan's CIA director, the late William
Casey was Wackenhut's outside legal counsel. The company has 30,000 armed
employees on its payroll.

We wanted to know more about this special relationship; but the government
was not forthcoming. Repeated requests to the Department of Energy for an
explanation of how one company got the security contracts for neariy all of
America's most strategic installations have gone unanswered.

Similarly, efforts to get the State Department to explain whether embassy
contracts were awarded arbitrarily or through competitive bidding were
fruitless; essentially, the State Department said, "Some of both. "
Wackenhut's competitors-who, understandably, asked not to be quoted by
name-have their own version. "All those contracts;" said one security-firm
executive, "are just another way to pay Wackenhut for their clandestine
help. And what is the nature of that help? "It is known throughout the
industry," said retired FBI special agent William Hinshaw, "that if you want
a dirty job done, call Wackenhut." We met George Wackenhut in his swanky,
muy macho offices in Coral Gables. The rooms are paneled in a dark, rich
rosewood, accented with gray-blue stone. The main office is dominated by
Wackenhut's 12-foot-long desk and a pair of chairs shaped like elephants-
"Republican chairs," he calls them-complete with real tusks, which, the old
man says with some amusement, tend to stick his visitors. The highlight of
the usual collection of pictures and awards is the Republican presidential
exhibit: an autographed photo of Wackenhut shaking hands with George Bush
(whom Wackenhut, according to a former associate, used to call "that pinko")
as well as framed photos of Presidents Reagan, Nixon and Bush, each
accompanied by a handwritten note. The chairman looks every inch the
comfortable Florida septuagenarian. The day we spoke, his clothing ranged
across the color spectrum from baby blue to light baby blue, and he wore a
iot of jewelry-a huge gold watch on a thick gold band, two massive goid
rings. But Wackenhut was, at 72, quick and tough in his responses. Near the
end of our two-and-a-half hour interview, when asked if his company was an
arm of the CIA, he snapped, "No!"


<< cont >>

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@SEEN-BY: 123/26
@PATH: 123/26

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(3821)  Sun 17 Jan 93 20:50
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: WackenSPY - 3/5
St: Local Sent                                                       3820<>3822
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/[e-mail] 089486d9
@PID: FM 2.02
 * Forwarded from "UFO"
 * Originally by Don Allen
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 17 Jan 1993, 20:38

<< cont from last >>


Of course, this may just be a matter of semantics. We have spoken to
numerous experts, including current and former CIA agents and analysts,
current and former agents of the Drug Enforcement Administration and current
and former Wackenhut executives and employees, all of whom have said that in
the mid-197O's, atter the Senate Intelligence Committee's revelations of the
CIA's covert and sometimes illegal overseas operations, the agency and
Wackenhut grew very, very close. Those revelations had forced the CIA to do
a housecleaning, and it became CIA policy that certain kinds of activities
would no longer officially be performed. But that didn't always mean that
the need or the desire to undertake such operations disappeared. And that's
where Wackenhut came in.

Our sources confirm that Wackenhut has had a long- standing relationship
with the CIA, and that it has deepened over the last decade or so. Bruce
Berckmans, who was assigned to the CIA station in Mexico City, left the
agency in January 1975 (putatively) to become a Wackenhut
international-operations vice president. Berckmans, who left Wackenhut in
1981, told SPY that he has seen a formal proposal George Wackenhut submitted
to the CIA to allow the agency to use Wackenhut offices throughout the world
as fronts for CIA activities. Kichard Babayan, who says he was a CIA
contract employee and is currently in jail awaiting trial on fraud and
racketeering charges, has been cooperating with federal and congressional
investigators looking into illegal shipments of
nuclear-and-chemical-weapons- making supplies to Iraq. "Wackenhut has been
used by the CIA and other intelligence agencies for years," he told SPY.
"When they [the CIA] need cover, Wackenhut is there to provide it for them."
Canadian prime minister Pierre Trudeau was said to have rebuffed Wackenhut's
effort in the 1980's to purchase a weapons propellant manufacturer in Quebec
with the remark "We just got rid of the CIA-we don't want them back."
Phillip Agee, the left-wing former CIA agent who wrote an expose' of the
agency in 1975, told us, "I don't have the slightest doubt that the CIA and
Wackenhut overlap."

There is also testimony from people who are not convicts, renegades or
Canadians. William Corbett, a terrorism expert who spent 18 years as a CIA
analyst and is now an ABC News consultant based in Europe, confirmed the
relationship between Wackenhut and the agency. "For years Wackenhut has been
involved with the CIA and other intelligence organizations, including the
DEA," he told SPY. "Wackenhut would allow the CIA to occupy positions within
the company [in order to carry out] clandestine operations." He also said
that Wackenhut would supply intelligence agencies with information, and that
it was compensated for this- "in a quid pro quo arrangement," Corbett
says-with government contracts worth billions of dollars over the years.

We have uncovered considerable evidence that Wackenhut carried the CIA's
water in fighting Communist encroachment in Central America in the 1980s
(that is to say, during the Reagan administration when the CIA director was
former Wackenhut lawyer William Casey, the late superpatriot who had a
proclivity for extralegal and illegal anti-Communist covert operations such
as Iran-contra). In 1981, Berckmans, the CIA agent turned Wackenhut vice
president, joined with other senior Wackenhut executives to form the
company's Special Projects Division. It was this division that linked up
with ex-CIA man John Phillip Nichols, who had taken over the Cabazon Indian
reservation in California, as we described in a previous article
["Badlands," April 1992], in pursuit of a scheme to manufacture explosives,
poison gas and biological weapons-and then, by virtue of the tribe's status
as a sovereign nation, to export the weapons to the contras. This maneuver
was designed to evade congressional prohibitions against the U.S.
government's helping the contras. Indeed, in an interview with SPY, Eden
Pastora, the contras' famous Commander Zero, who had been spotted at a test
of some night-vision goggles at a firing range near the Cabazon reservation
in the company of Nichols and a Wackenhut executive, offhandedly identified
that executive, A. Robert Frye, as "the man from the CIA. " (In a subsequent
conversation he denied knowing Frye at all; of course, in that same talk he
quite unbelievably denied having ever been a contra.)

In  addition  to  attempted weapons supply, Wackenhut seems to have been
involved in Central America in other ways. Ernesto Bermudez  who was
Wackenhut's director of international operations from 1987 to '89, admitted
to SPY that during 1985 and '86 he ran Wackenhut's operations in El
Salvador, where he was in charge of 1,500 men. When asked what 1 ,500 men
were doing for Wackenhut in El Salvador, Bermudez replied coyly, "Things."
Pressed, he elaborated: "Things you wouldn't want your mother to know about."
It's worth noting that Wackenhut's annual revenues from government
contracts--the alleged reward for cooperation in the government's
clandestine activities-increased by 150 million, a 45 percent jump, while
Ronald Reagan was in office. "You've done an awful lot of research, George
Wackenhut said to me as I was leaving. "How would you like to run all our
New York operations ? "

If that was the extent of Wackenhut's possible involvement in a government
agency's attempt to circumvent the law, then we might dismiss it as an
interesting footnote to the overheated, cowboy anti- Communist 1980s.
However, the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida has been
conducting an investigation into the illegal export of dual-use
technology-that is, seemingly innocuous technology that can also be used to
make nuclear weapons  to Iraq and Libya. And SPY has learned that
Wackenhut's name has come up in the federal investigation, but not at
present as a target.


<< cont >>

--- FMail 0.92
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(3820)  Sun 17 Jan 93 20:50
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: WackenSPY - 4/5
St: Local Sent                                                       3819<>3821
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/[e-mail] 089486da
@PID: FM 2.02
 * Forwarded from "UFO"
 * Originally by Don Allen
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 17 Jan 1993, 20:39

<< cont from last >>


Between 1987 and '89, three companies in the United States received
investments from an Iraqi architect named Ihsan Barbouti. The colorful
Barbouti owned an engineering company in Frankfort that had a $552 million
contract to build airfields in Iraq. He also admitted having designed
Mu'ammar Qaddafi's infamous German-built chemical- weapons plant in Rabta,
Libya. According to an attorney for one of the companies in which Barbouti
invested, the architect owned $100 million worth of real estate and
oil-drilling equipment in Texas and Oklahoma. He may also be dead, there
being reports that he died of heart failure in Hospital in London on July 1,
1990, his 63rd birthday. Barbouti, however, had faked his death once before,
in 1969, after the Ba'ath takeover in Iraq which brought Saddam Hussein to
power as the second-in-command. That time, Barbouti escaped Iraq;
resurfacing several years later in Lebanon and Libya. There are no  reports
that he is living in Jordan -or, according to other reports, in a CIA safe
house in Florida. Those reports can be considered no better than rumor; what
follows, though, is fact.

As reported  on ABC's "Nightline" last year, the three companies in which
Barbouti invested were TK-7 of Oklahoma City, which makes a fuel additive;
Pipeline Recovery Systems of Dallas, which makes an anti-corrosive chemical
that preserves pipes; and Product Ingredient Technoiogy of Boca Raton, which
makes food flavorings. None of these companies was looking to do business
with Iraq; Barbouti sought them out. Why was he interested? Because TK-7 had
formulas that could extend the range of jet aircraft and liquid-fueled
missiles such as the SCUD; because Pipeline Recovery knows how to coat pipes
to make them usable in nuclear reactors and chemical-weapons plants; and
because one of the by- products in making cherry flavoring is ferric
ferrocyanide, a chemical that's used to manufacture hydrogen cyanide, which
can penetrate gas masks and protective clothing. Hydrogen cyanide was used
by Saddam Hussein against the Kurds in the Iran-Iraq war.

Barbouti was more than a passive investor, and soon he began pressuring the
companies to ship not only their products but also their manufacturing
technology to corporations he owned in Europe,  on which, he told the
businessmen, it would be sent to Libya and Iraq. In doing so, Barbouti was
attempting to violate the law. First, the U.S. forbade sending anything to
Libya, which was embargoed as a terrorist nation. Second, the U.S. specified
that material of this sort must be sent to its final destination, not to an
intermediate locale, where the U.S. would risk losing control of its
distribution. According to former CIA contract employee Richard Babayan, in
late 1989 Barbouti met in London with Ibrahim Sabawai, Saddam Hussein's half
brother and European head of Iraqi intelligence, who grew excited about the
work Pipeline Recovery was doing and called for the company's technology to
be rushed to Iraq, so that it could be in place by early 1990. And the owner
of TK-7 swears that Barbouti told him he was developing an atom device for
Qaddafi that would be used against the U.S. in retaliation for the 1986 U.S.
air strike against Libya. Barbouri also wanted the ferrocyanide from Product
Ingredient.

Assisting Barbouti with these investments was New Orleans exporter Don
Seaton, business associate of Richard Secord, the right-wing U.S. Army
general turned war profiteer who was so deeply enmeshed in the Iran-contra
affair. It was Secord who connected Barbouti with Wackenhut. Barbouti met
with Secord in Florida on several occasions, and phone records show that
several calls were placed from Barbouti's office to Secord's private number
in McLean, Virginia; Secord has acknowledged knowing Barbouti. He is
currently a partner of Washington businessman James Tully (who is the man
who leaked Bill Clinton's draft-dodge letter to ABC) and Jack Brennan, a
former Marine Corps colonel and longtime aide to Richard Nixon both in the
White House and in exile. Brennan has gone back to the White House, where he
works as a director of administrative operations in President Bush's office.
He refused to return repeated calls from SPY. Interestingly, Brennan and
Tully had previously been involved in a $181 million business deal to supply
uniforms to the Iraqi army. Oddly, they arranged to have the uniforms
manufactured in Nicolae Ceaucescu's Romania. The partners in that deal were
former U.S. attorney general and Watergate felon John Mitchell and Sarkis
Soghanalian, a Turkish-born Lebanese citizen. Soghanalian, who has been
credited with being Saddam Hussein's leading arms procurer and with
introducing the demonic weapons inventor Gerald Bull to the Iraqis, is
currently serving a six-year sentence in federal prison in Miami for the
illegal sale of 103 military helicopters to Iraq. According to former
Wackenhut agent David Ramirez, the company considered Soghanalian "a very
valuable client."

Unfortunately for Barbouti, none of the companies in which he made
investments was willing to ship its products or technology to his European
divisions. That, however, doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't get some
of what he wanted. In 1990, 2,000 gallons of ferrocyanide were found to be
missing from the cherry-flavor factory in Boca Raton. Where it went is a
mystery; Peter Kawaja, who was the head of security for all of Barbouti's
U.S. investments, told SPY, "We were never burglarized, but that stuff didn't
walk out by itself."

What does all this have to do with Wackenhut? Lots: According to Louis
Champon, the owner of Product Ingredient Technology, it was Wackenhut that
guarded his Boca Raton plant, a fact confirmed by Murray Levine, a Wackenhut
vice president. Champon also says, and Wackenhut also confirms, that the
security for the plant consisted of one unarmed guard. While a Wackenhut
spokesperson maintains that this was the only job they were doing for
Barbouti, he also says that they were never paid, that Barbouti stiffed
them.

<< cont >>

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: You visit the zoo but you don't *contact* the lizards (1:123/26.1)

@SEEN-BY: 123/26
@PATH: 123/26

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(3822)  Sun 17 Jan 93 20:51
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: WackenSPY - 5/5
St: Local Sent                                                            <3821
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/[e-mail] 089486db
@PID: FM 2.02
 * Forwarded from "UFO"
 * Originally by Don Allen
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 17 Jan 1993, 20:41

<< cont from last >>


This does not seem true. SPY has obtained four checks from Barbouti to
Wackenhut. All were written within ten days in 1990: one on March 27 for
$168.89; one on March 28 for $24,828.07; another on April 5 for $756; the
last on April 6 for $40,116.25. We asked Richard Kneip, Wackenhut's senior
vice president for corporate planning, to explain why a single guard was
worth $66,000 a year; Kneip was at a loss to do so. He was similarly at a
loss to explain a fifth check, from another Barbouti company to Wackenhut's
travel-service division in 1987, almost two years before Wackenhut has
acknowledged providing security for the Boca Raton plant .

Two former CIA operatives, separately interviewed, have the explanation.
Charles Hayes, who describes himself as "a CIA asset " says Wackenhut was
helping Barbouti ship chemicals to Iraq, "Supplying Iraq was originally a
good idea," he maintains, "but then it got out of hand. Wackenhut was  just
in  it  for  the money." Richard Babayan the former CIA contract employee,
confirmed Hayes's account. He says that Wackenhut's relationship with
Barbouti existed before the Boca Raton plant opened: "Barbouti was placed in
the hands of Secord by the CIA, and Secord called in Wackenhut to handle
security and travel and protection for Barbouti and his export plans."
Wackenhut, Babayan says was working for the CIA in helping Barbouti ship the
chemical- and-nuclear-weapons-making equipment first to Texas, then to
Chicago, and then to Baltimore to be shipped overseas. All of which makes
the story of the midnight convoy ride of David Ramirez, recounted at the
beginning of this article rather less mysterious. SPY has learned that this
shipment is now the subject of a joint USDA- Customs investigation.

When we asked George Wackenhut what was being shipped from Eagle Pass to
Chicago, the sharp, straightforward chairman at first claimed they were
protecting an unnamed executive. He then directed an aide to get back to me.
Two days later, Richard Kneip did, repeating the tale that had been passed
on to David Ramirez-that the trucks contained food stamps. We told him that
we had spoken to a Department of Agriculture official, who informed us that
food stamps are shipped from Chicago to outlying areas, never the other way
around, and that food stamps, unlike money, are used once and then
destroyed. All Kneip would say then was, "We do not reveal the names of our
clients."

Wackenhut's connection to the CIA and to other government agencies raises
several troubling questions:

First, is the CIA using Wackenhut to conduct operations that it has been
forbidden to undertake? Second, is the White House or some other party in
the executive branch working through Wackenhut to conduct operations that it
doesn't want Congress to know about? Third, has Wackenhut's cozy
relationship with the government given it a feeling of security-or worse, an
outright knowledge of sensitive or embarrassing information-that allows the
company to believe that it can conduct itself as though it were above the
law? A congressional investigation into Wackenhut's activities in the
Alyeska affair last November began to shed some light on Wackenhut's way of
doing business; clearly it's time for Congress to investigate just how far
Wackenhut's other tentacles extend.

Additional reporting by Erzc Reguly, Margie Sloan and Wendell Smith

** End of article **


Don

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: You visit the zoo but you don't *contact* the lizards (1:123/26.1)

--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:13404 alt.paranormal:6466 sci.skeptic:38688
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!darwin.sura.net!cs.ucf.edu!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: MUFON article on Ed Dames and Roswell
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 04:00:09 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 106

(6066)  Sun 24 Jan 93 17:38
By: John Komar
To: All
Re: Informational News-Wire
St:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 88:88/0 2B5C3CAF
          MUFONET-BBS GROUP  -  MUFONET-BBS NETWORK
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  INFORMATIONAL NEWS - WIRE
                 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
│OPERATION RIGHT TO KNOW - FORUM Newsletter - Winter 1992-93 │
│ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~│
│          PSI TECH: NEW ENIGMA ON THE UFO HORIZON           │
│         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~          │
│                    By Elaine Douglass                      │
│                                                            │
│    Associate Editor/FORUM - MUFON State Director/D.C.      │
│                                                            │
│Some readers of the FORUM will recall news accounts during  │
│the Gulf War of the use of psychics by the UN to find Saddam│
│Hussein's hidden biological weapons.                        │
│                                                            │
│Fewer readers will recall that PSI TECH was the name of the │
│company which provided the psychics to the UN, and that     │
│Major Ed Dames, Retired, US Army Intelligence, is the       │
│president of PSI TECH.                                      │
│                                                            │
│And probably no readers are aware that PSI TECH and Ed Dames│
│have anything to do with UFOs, and as for the UFO community,│
│Dames has a message that could split the community down the │
│middle.  What's the message?  UFOs are real.  Roswell isn't.│
│                                                            │
│Dames said that for nearly 10 years he and his colleagues in│
│PSI TECH have used a psychic technique called "remote       │
│viewing" to gather information on the UFO phenomena.  Remote│
│viewing was developed in the 1980s by psychic Ingo Swann at │
│the Stanford Research Institute.                            │
│                                                            │
│While he was in the military, Dames studied remote viewing  │
│with Swann and trained others in the technique.  In 1989    │
│Dames founded PSI TECH, which offers remote viewing services│
│to industry, governments, and organizations.                │
│                                                            │
│Dames says PSI TECH consists of a team of 8 remote viewers, │
│6 of whom are "present duty or active duty Army intelligence│
│or Army special operations officers."  The team works on    │
│projects like finding Iraq's hidden weapons, locating       │
│Mozart's grave, and determining the fate of the passengers  │
│of Korean Airline 007.  But PSI TECH's major project has to │
│do with UFOs.                                               │
│                                                            │
│PHI TECH's major current project, according to Dames, is to │
│provide "scientific validation" of an "operational UFO site"│
│he says he's located in Northern New Mexico.  Leading       │
│scientists will announce the results to the public no later │
│than April, 1993, says Dames.                               │
│                                                            │
│There is much about ed Dames that will deeply interest the  │
│UFO community.  A former Major in the United States Army,   │
│Dames is talking openly about UFOs.  No deep throat, the    │
│Major, no anonymous source.  And not a cryptic commentor    │
│either.  Dames is speaking volumes.                         │
│                                                            │
│He says UFOs are real.  The abductions are real.  The greys │
│are real.  The hybrids are real.  The bizarre strangeness is│
│real.  But what is not real is the single most important    │
│case developed by the UFO research community.  What is not  │
│real is the case whose multitude of witnesses and meticulous│
│documentation is so impressive it can be presented anywhere │
│to any public forum including the U.S. Congress.  That case │
│is not real, and the U.S. Government has no pieces of a     │
│crashed flying saucer in it's possession, Dames says.       │
│                                                            │
│What was Roswell?  According to Ed Dames, Roswell was a     │
│fictitious event staged by the alien, something Dames calls │
│"brain wave entertainment," something he says he found out  │
│about through remote viewing.  "Truck drivers frozen at the │
│wheel" and "white spheres all over the place."  That's what │
│Dames says the Roswell site actually looked like in 1947,   │
│even though "the participants will go to their graves       │
│swearing it was real."                                      │
│                                                            │
│In repudiating Roswell, Ed Dames puts himself at odds with  │
│the UFO community even as he gives that community something │
│it desperately wants: public confirmation of the phenomena  │
│from a high level government source.  This surely is a      │
│prescription for an uneasy relationship between the UFO     │
│community and Ed Dames.                                     │
│                                                            │
│FORUM staff have been studying Dames and his allegation.    │
│More information will be forthcoming in the next issue.     │
│                                                            │
│=END=                                                       │
└────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: ░▒▓ MUFONET-BBS Network ▓▒░ 901-785-4943 (88:88/0)

@PATH: 123/26
--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen sci.physics:37265 alt.alien.visitors:13405
Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!darwin.sura.net!cs.ucf.edu!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: Warren York paper on GUT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 04:01:51 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 347

(7768)  Fri 22 Jan 93 22:05
By: Warren York
To: All
Re: GUT 1/3
St:                                                                       7769>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:381/51.0@fidonet 2b6061b2
@PID: STFD 3.0.8 0E36FF35FF
                       SCALAR TECHNOLOGY
                        MASS VS. ENERGY

                   [ E=MC^2 :: E=MC^*<-2-> ]

                    UNIFIED FIELD EQUATION

When I first started writing articles on scalar technology in
Extraordinary Science three years ago I received phone calls
asking if I thought Einstein's equation E=MC^2 was wrong or
somehow incorrect?  At that time I did not find fault with the
equation and said it was correct as is. Something did not look
right, but I did not know enough at that time to put my finger
on just what it was. Due to new developments in our research, we
now feel we know what was missing in the original equation. The
original equation still stands true but is lacking an in-depth
description of factors that up to now were taken as just
understood or unrelated as the equation stands alone. Gravity is
a curved flow of SPACE/TIME. That is to say gravity is the
geometry of space/time flow where Matter takes on a linear
vectorial motion known as Time. Since one is made up of the
other this now introduces two new factors to the equation. The
one factor known as TIME and is the whole basis of what
relativity is formed around. Maybe not actual time but more so
its effect relative to where one is viewing the event taking
place at that instant of time.

Let me give a very common example of what I mean. When one looks
at a distant star, he or she is actually looking at a natural
time machine. The events of that light from that star may have
taken place thousands upon thousands of years before the
observer actually looks up and sees the light as it reaches
earth. At 186K miles/sec [distance/speed] that actual light has
long passed and that star might not even be in existence
anymore.

An even more common example would be right here on earth in most
peoples livingrooms: the television set. Let's say, there are
two observers in the room. Observer A and observer B are both
looking at the same set at the exact same instant. Is it the
wave property or a photon particle property that strikes the
eyes of both A and B at the same instant? It does not matter if
it is the wave property or the particle property [duality] that
is taking over. The event will always be different in time
depending on where each observer is sitting even though ever so
slightly different. If it were a wave property, the time would
be almost undetectable but still slightly different in a moment
of time. If it  were a particle property then the photon that
strikes the eye of one observer cannot be the exact same photon
that strikes the eyes of the second and so forth. Now why is
this so important? It introduces TIME as a variable factor in
our energy to matter or matter to energy equation [E=MC^2 ::
E=MC^*<-2->]. Until now, this time factor has just been taken
for granted and thought of as understood. The problem with this
assumption is that at least three if not more, types of time
exist: Present time where a conjugate wave of light goes back on
itself to the source, negative time where events are perceived
in the past, and positive time where events are predicted and
take place in the future.

The key to understanding Einstein's original equation E=MC^2 lies
in understanding what Einstein understood but others were only
able to speculate on. That understanding lies in just what is
the process called MASS. At what point does energy become MASS,
and at what point does mass become ENERGY? We all know that mass
[solid objects] are all made up of energy but what or where is
the changeover point from one to the other? We also know that
supposedly nothing can go faster than light [186K miles/sec]. If
this is true then just what did Einstein mean by C2 in his
famous equation E=MC^2? By definition C2 means C [186K miles/sec]
times C [186K miles/sec] which would equal 3.4596e+10 miles/sec.
This would be much faster than C as we know it. How can this be?
What point are we missing that Einstein understood? The
following is an understanding of just what Mass and time are as
derived from scalar technology which may shed light on this
matter.

--- FIDOdoor 3.0.8 [Registered]
 * Origin: Cheyenne Mountain BBS (1:381/51.0)

@PATH: 381/51 97 170/400 209/209 396/1 123/19 26

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(7769)  Fri 22 Jan 93 22:07
By: Warren York
To: All
Re: GUT 2/3
St:                                                                  7768<>7770
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:381/51.0@fidonet 2b6061f6
@PID: STFD 3.0.8 0E36FF35FF
TIME is the linear motion of energy changing position from point
to point along its world line (Vector). The period in which
energy changes position is known as frequency.

MASS is the counter-rotating birotational (nonlinear) motion of
energy which must be considered a matter particle at this point
without respect to a world line (Nonvectorial). Mass experiences
time and gives up energy as it travels through space, but
inherent time is cancelled within itself by the positive and
negative aspects of BIROTATIONAL EQUILIBRIUM as a singularity.
Interaction with energy, loss or gain, produces frequency
oscillations and thus time for mass because it produces change
in the mass particle. As a particle of mass decays, it returns
energy to the energy cycle. Therefore, mass may be thought of as
energy in a "semi-frozen" oriented form or as a
multi-dimensional hologram.

                 [ Summation symbol sub L = 0 ]

                     ROTATIONAL EQUILIBRIUM [1]

No TIME within the matter particle itself. (No Change) (Photons
added/subtracted = change = time)

This now means that E=MC^2 has a hidden variable which till now
has been overlooked as a real tangible factor known as TIME. To
indicate this factor

the symbols [ * ] meaning rotational and [ <-> ] meaning
birotational or CW & CCW rotations-[vectors]. That would make
the equation E=MC^*<-2-> but we would rather it be displayed as
[E=MC^2 :: E=MC^*<-2-> ] so as not to detract or take away in any
manner from the great work of Albert Einstein. His would be the
simplistic and our equation would be the scalar form giving the
extra dimension known as time. This now opens up Pandora's box.
This means TIME is a real variable and may be engineered the
same as matter to energy and the counterpart which is still
unproven but known to exist, energy to matter.

The following are postulates derived by experimentation and
study done into plotting the fields in scalar technology. Pay
close attention to the wording.


                       VER 2.02   JD92365

      *Postulates from York's New Unified Field Theory*

  1.  Energy to mass stages

      a.  Motion produces an arc ->  arc produces a vortex ->
          vortex produces polarity -> opposing polarity
          produces charge-> charge produces lattice ->lattice
          produces structure -> structure produces form

  2.  Orientation between Maxwellian and basic time continuum

      a.  Mass [birotational energy] normally has oscillatory
          motion in nature.

         *Ex: Electrons motion in an antenna.  [RF radiation]

         * Ex: Energy with oscillatory motion would be a laser or
          [photon] oscillatory motion.

      b.  Energy [linear] normally has bilateral rotational
          motion in nature.

        * Ex: An electron [mass particle] is an example of
          energy [photon particles] still unaccepted but our
          interpretation of the makeup of an Electron itself.

        * Ex: Of mass bilateral rotation would be a Tesla coil
          producing longitudinal waves.[RC]-Reciprocating Current

   3.  Mass vs. Energy

     a.  Counter-rotating orbital rotational energy = MASS

        *In our equation[ E=MC^2 :: E=MC^*<-2-> ]. Note: This is
         what C^*<-2-> represents.

     b.  Electrons may consist of counter-rotating orbital
         photons

        *The upper rotating cluster [direction of electron flow]
         has more photons than the lower counter-rotating
         cluster. The true form is that of a Chaotic
         Streamline guided by the Hopf Ellipse. [2]

     c. *The force on the poles of the counter-rotating orbital
         photons is at 45 degrees to the magnetic pole of
         the electron which they make up, a part of the optical
         property of photons.



     d. *Photons have orbital motion in a magnetic field and
         just spin as a singularity.

 4.  Maxwellian vs. Einsteinian

     a.  Free  electrons = electrostatic field

     b.  Orbital electrons = space/time displacement = WEAK Force

     c.  Alignment of space/time displacement [orbital
         electrons] = STRONG Force

  5.  Gyroscopic action

     a.  Gyroscopic action fixes/sets re-orientation of
         space/time within one relativity consisting
         of at least four dimensions.

       * Orbital rotation is gyroscopic action.

  6.  Constants vs. non-constants

     a.  The speed of light is not constant.

       *We are limited to the detection of events at the speed
        of light in our relativity. EX: Take a wide flat
        rubberband and mark one inch on it to represent 186K mps
        [speed of  light]

     b. The distance of a speed of light is constant relative
        to its frame of reference.

       * Now stretch the rubberband and mark on a flat piece of
         paper the new length of the DISTANCE of the speed  of light.
         The new extended line is still the distance of the speed
         of light, but the speed relative to the unstretched line
         must be FTL because we are still using the line from our
         original relativity.  [4D]

--- FIDOdoor 3.0.8 [Registered]
 * Origin: Cheyenne Mountain BBS (1:381/51.0)

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(7770)  Fri 22 Jan 93 22:07
By: Warren York
To: All
Re: GUT 3/3
St:                                                                       <7769
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@MSGID: 1:381/51.0@fidonet 2b60620a
@PID: STFD 3.0.8 0E36FF35FF
     7.  Energy/Mass/Time/Space

     a.  Mass traveling at or near the  speed of light does not
         actually become infinite but only SEEMS to from
         the  view of the observer [A] and nothing has
         actually changed from the view of [B] the observer doing
         the motion except [DSL] the distance of the speed of light.

       *Special Relativity is not needed to explain this action.
        The observation of mass reaching infinity by [A] is
        due to space/time being stretched and bent around [B]
        the traveler.

     b.  All matter stretches [alters] space/TIME [the distance
         of the speed of light] as one passes through the other.




       *The time is what is altered [stretched] not the amount
        of space itself. This process is known as time
        lensing. This is also known as perception.
        [To perceive you  must have change]

     c. Light-shift/frequency-spectrum is due to the SLUSH
        effect of space/time [lensing].

     d. Frequency = Angle  of bent space/time

       *Bent space/time acts as a prism for color separation

8. Mathematical assumptions in true relativity

     a. In more than one relativity [4D] Mathematically,
        actions  are NOT ADDITIVE but are a PRODUCT of
        each other. Ex:C^2 In relativity [singular or one set
        of 4D] actions are mathematically additives except for
        the speed of light itself.Ex: [C' + C'] Note: C'= one
        set distance of the speed of light within one singular
        or prime relativity.

9.  Gravity -  Unification field

      a. Gravity is a PROCESS  not a particle.  A push-pull
         force [pump]. It is more of a PUSH  than a pull
         force.

       *This is part of the distance squared law.  If you are at
        the arc of the field flow it is a PUSH and if you
        are in closer to the mass you are in the counter-rotating
        flow and it is a PULL force. [ButterflyField-Pattern]

We fell these postulates are the basic building blocks of our
fundamental particles. We do not feel gravitons or quarks exist
as sub-particles and no such evidence has been brought forward
beyond a shadow of a doubt to prove the QCD concept. The photon
itself has pre-energy levels which is beyond the scope of this
paper at this time. The postulates and concepts are far from
being finished and work is currently advancing in a positive
direction.

                          REFERENCES


 1. Laboratory Manual, Physics and experimental Science by H.E.
    White, D.H. White, Mauri Gould, 1968

 2. Nonlinear Dynamics of Structures, by R.M. Kiehn, "Compact
    dissipative flow structures with tgopological
    coherence, embedded in eulerian environments" 1989 IUTAM
    meeting on Topological Fluid Mechanics




                       December 30, 1992

By:

     Warren E. York           AND          Charlotte Geier
     [915] 581-3931                        [915] 581-0581




  * INFO/NET, 7101 N. Mesa, Suite 133, El Paso, Texas 79912 *

                             END

--- FIDOdoor 3.0.8 [Registered]
 * Origin: Cheyenne Mountain BBS (1:381/51.0)

@PATH: 381/51 97 170/400 209/209 396/1 123/19 26
--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:13406 alt.conspiracy:23002 sci.skeptic:38689
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!darwin.sura.net!cs.ucf.edu!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: MUFON article - Field of Schemes - Crop circles
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 04:04:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 860

(7063)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:18
By: John Komar
To: All
Re: HUFON/CROPS 1/9
St:                                                                       7174>
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@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924992
          MUFONET-BBS GROUP  -  MUFONET-BBS NETWORK
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   COORDINATED INFORMATION EXCHANGE - HOUSTON UFO NETWORK
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The following article originally appeared in the January '93
HUFON Report, the newsletter of the Houston UFO Network.
Article provided by HUFON for posting by The MufoNet-BBS
Network.
------------------------------------------------------------
           Crop Circle Update - FIELD OF SCHEMES I
                       By Bill Eatwell

In the November 1992 issue of the Mufon UFO Journal, there
is an article by Jim Schnabel titled, "Confessions Of A Crop
Circle Spy". Well, as always, there is more to this story
than is being published. For one thing, there are alleged
inaccuracies in Schnabel's telling of his side of an
a recorded telephone interview that was to be published in
the journal of the Centre For Crop Circle Studies known as
The Circular which is edited by George Wingfield. The
interview was mysteriously pulled from the magazine before
distribution.

In October, while attending George Wingfield's Dallas, Texas
lecture (see HUFON Report, Nov., 1992 issue), George gave
me, in strict confidence, a copy of the Schnabel interview
that had been pulled.  George told me that his publisher in
England, Michael Green, had pulled the interview from
publication while he was on his lecture tour here in
America.
I was told to "sit" on my copy unless given the go ahead to
publish the suppressed interview in the HUFON Report if
George was unable to resolve the problem when he returned to
England.  On Saturday,(12/5) I received a call from a friend
alerting me that a new publication in Dallas, the Texas
Mufon Newsletter, had just published George's suppressed
interview.
I immediately called George in England and asked permission
to reprint the same article in  HUFON Report.  I not only
got the OK, but received the next day, by fax a copy of
George's soon to be published reply to the above Journal
article by Schnabel.  Since not all HUFON members subscribe
to the Mufon UFO Journal, I will carefully summarize
Schnabel's article below. Included in this Crop Circle
Update are both the suppressed interview, and George's faxed
reply to Schnabel's article which should appear in the
December Mufon UFO Journal. According to George, the
following (suppressed) interview was made and recorded by
Dr. Armen Victorian (AKA: Henry Azadehdel, Dr. Alan Jones,
and for this interview, Cassava Ntumba). George says that
there was no time lapse between Victorian's prior call to a
Robert Irving, and Jim Schnabel.  Why is this important?
Because, Schnabel claims that Irving called him to warn of
Victorian's question line and the two of them conspired to
lead Victorian, as Ntumba, down the old proverbial false
disinformation trail.
George also told me that someone (he knows who) sent a copy
of the "pulled" interview to Schnabel so he could fashion a
quick cover story and, somehow, persuade the Mufon UFO
Journal to print it.  After you have read the following, I
will have more at the end.....


THE SUPPRESSED CIRCULAR INTERVIEW
Subject of The Circular interview in this issue is Jim
Schnabel.   He has written several newspaper articles on the
circles beginning with an item in the Washington Post last
year which espoused the cause of orthodox Meadenism. More
recently he collaborated with Robert Irving to produce a
piece for the Independent Magazine in which it was implied
that many of the major pictograms in the mid-Wiltshire area
were hoaxed by the UBI group.  Although UBI has faked a few
minor formations (of which CCCS has full details)
suggestions of major hoaxing by them --at, say, Alton
Barnes--are known to be untrue and this article can only be
seen as part of Schnabel and Irving's campaign to make
people think that the pictograms are all hoaxes and promote
the highly dubious claims of Doug & Dave.

Unlike Doug & Dave, Schnabel is an accomplished circlefaker
and in July he came second in The Cerealogist's Circlemaking
Competition at West described then as the "Master of
Grapeshot," he did not deny having had previous circlemaking
experience.

Ostensibly Schnabel is a student doing a post-graduate
course in sociology at Bath University. Despite this his
telephone number is on the Oxford exchange and his address
in Bath (where Robert Irving lives) is secret.  He usually
gives his address as c/o Lincoln College, Oxford, although
at the beginning of l992 Lincoln College stated that
Schnabel no longer had any connection with them.

Continued.....

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(7054)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:19
By: John Komar
To: All
Re: HUFON/CROPS, 2/9
St:                                                                       7055>
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In the following candid interview Schnabel reveals his role
as a paid disinformation agent working for an unnamed
western inrelligence organisation.  From what he says, one
is made aware of the extent and determination of the
continuing campaign to rubbish the circles and discredit the
researchers. This campaign is but a continuation of the Doug
& Dave scam with different faces, different players.

The "interviewer" in this case is Armen Victorian, who has
written for The Circular previously and who introduces
himself as Kasaba Ntumba.  Unaware of Ntumba's true
identity, Schnabel gradually opens up to this apparently
sympnthetic caller.

It is only fair to say that Schnabel now denies everything
which is contained herein and telephoned me some days later
in a state of scarcely suppressed agitation to claim that he
had just been ~winding up ~ Victorian (whom he had never met
or talked to, apart from a very brief introductory phone
call a short while before on the same day). Readers of The
Circular will have to judge for themselves whether or not
this is the case.

One may justifiably ask why someone would ever reveal well-
hidden secrets to a total stranger at such short notice. I
can only say that Victorian has achieved similar coups time
and again in speaking, by telephone to top intelligence
officers in the U.S.A., in South Africa and in other
countries and these people have frequently regretted what
they have let slip.  If Schnabel had been "winding up"
Victorian, it is inconceivable that he would then ring me up
and come clean. Apart from anything else he never normally
calls me, and of all the hoaxes I 've known --not just
circular ones-- no hoaxer has ever once sprung forward
saying "it's all a hoax, don't believe a word I just said."
Double bluff? Well, if you believe that, you'll believe
anything !

The acid test, of course, is the tape recording itself
rather than the transcript. Listen to this and, as with the
recent "Dianagate" tapes, one soon discards the notion that
the responses are contrived or false. It is to be regretted
that information has been obtained in this way but in the
face of a ruthless and sustained campaign to deceive the
public and CCCS this is amply justified.

For people who scoff at the idea that intelligence agencies
have any interests  in the circles phenomerlon, I can only
say that when in Washington, D. C., last April I was taken
specifically tomeet four charming gentlemen from the CIA who
made no secret about their profession and also their
interest in the circles and the UFO phenomenon. This is
entirely consistent with the content of this interview.

Continued.....

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(7055)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:20
By: John Komar
To: All
Re: HUFON/CROPS, 3/9
St:                                                                  7054<>7056
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@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924994
[Telephone rings]

Sch: Hello.
Vic: Mr Schnabel?
Sch: Yes.
Vic: This is Mr Ntumba.
Sch: Oh, hi. Hallo.
Vic: I'm sorry to bother you at Ihis time of the night. I
     was...now then, I was speaking to your friend.
Sch: Sorry?
Vic: I was, I was speaking to your friend a few hours ago,
     Mr Robert Irving.
Sch: Oh yeah, Rob Irving, yeah.
Vic: Thal's right; and I understand that you won the second
     prize in proving that, eventually, these, eh, circles
     are not reaily what the others think are made by 7-feet
     green men. And they are very much in an earth bound
     situation.
Sch: Yes, yes, I wouldn't have to prove anything really.
Vic: My congratulations - [laughs] - you did a good job.
Sch: Thank you very much, thank you very much.
Vic: Have you published anything?
Sch: Yes, eh, I have published a few things....
Vic: In magazines or newspapers - or private or..   ?
Sch: Well, yeah, I published something just this past
     weekend.
Vic: Ah!
Sch: In the Independent Magazine - that was a collaboration
     with....
Vic: Hey! You have an American accent!
Sch: Sorry?
Vic: You have an American accent.
Sch: Yes, I'm originally from the States, that's true.
Vic: Which part?
Sch: I'm from the East Coast.
Vic: East Coast. New York part?
Sch: In Virginia.
Vic: Virginia, a beautiful part of the country.
Sch: Yes it is, thank you very much.
Vic: Beautiful part of the country. One thing. . . One thing
     that Mr Irving said to me that I was a bit puzzled. He
     said that he works at a group of intelligence . . ., or
     something like that.
Sch: Oh, he did?
Vic: He did.
Sch: [Laughs] He, um...
Vic: When?
Sch: He sometimes, eh. . ., says things that he shouldn't
     say, but, eh...
Vic: What? Did he work genuinely with an intelligence...
Sch: Sorry - say that again.
Vic: Did he actually work with intelligence in the past?
Sch: Well, I really couldn't comment on anything like that.
     I mean I think you'd have to ask him.
Vic: ' Cos he was saying to me that - you know...What did he
     say to me?...  It was something that mystified me, to
     be perfectly honest with you. Eh, you know, he said
     that it pays, you know, that exactly what, you know, he
     said to me, to do what he is doing, and he works with a
     western intelligence... , he said to me.
Sch: Yeah.
Vic: And he said that man doesn't live on bread alone.
Sch: Yeah, well, you know, I really couldn't comment on any
     of that, I mean, ...eh....
Vic: Do you know, if that's the case that he is actually
     working with.. ?
Sch: Well, I wouldn't want to say anything on the record
     obviously.
Vic: [Laughs.] Well I don't blame you, can I? But I mean is
     he. .?  What I'm trying to say is you know....Look,
     you've handled these cases for several....sometimes
     people say things, as you've said yourself.  Is it
     saying it in order to create credence and mystery or
     you know this....?  because if it is the case, it
     backfires doesn't it, because that makes the man...you
     know what I'm trying to say.
Sch: No, I'm not clear
Vic: All I'm saying is....if that's not the case, the man
     doesn't work,.so why is he making all this, you
     know...statements, you see what I'm saying, it makes
     him look, you know, a person who doesn't have any
     credit in his opinion - do you see what I'm trying to
     say?

Continued.....

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(7056)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:21
By: John Komar
To: All
Re: HUFON/CROPS, 4/9
St:                                                                  7055<>7057
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@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924995
Sch: Well....
Vic: It's like me saying I'm the king.....
Sch: Well, I don't know....
Vic: Well, it's like me claiming....
Sch: I don't know what he has said but I mean he does have
     some connections in....l don't know, but I don't think
     thats something that either of us want to talk about.
Vic: But you know - there is a story...
Sch: I don't quite know who you are, so I don't want to talk
     about it in too much detail.
Vic: No, but I've been reading some of these magazines they
     have issued about groups and these articles about the
     7-feet green men... groups put out that's there's
     intelligence in it, etc., etc., and now Mr Irving says
     that to me. You see I was a bit taken back. Is there
     any interest from the intelligence ,part in it as well?
Sch: Sorry, intelligence....?
Vic: Any interest from the intelligence part in the
     phenomenon?
Sch: Well, does he have an interest in the intelligence? ...
     I'm not sure quite what...
Vic: What I'm trying to tell.... it's my bad English, I'm
     sorry.
Sch: About M15, or are you talking about UFOs?
Vic: Anything...any government intelligence group....
Sch: No, no, it's clear to me now. Yes, well I mean....off
     the record, I mean I think a number of agencies
     throughout the world have taken an interest in this.
Vic: Well, that we've heard, haven't we?
Sch: It is potentially a very explosine phenomenon.
Vic: I mean, can they exploit it, how can they exploit the
     phenomenon?
Sch: Well, I mean, I think...l think some of us are
     concerned that the phenomenon may - it's difficult to
     explain, but....
Vic: Try me!
Sch: We believe there is certainly something very sinister
     about what's going on - eh..., I don't know whether
     you're a Christian man or not....?
Vic:    Christian... of course I am.
Sch: But some of us feel quite....
Vic: I'm a Catholic.
Sch: Well, yes, yes, so am I. And some of us feel concerned
     that, eh....
Vic: Some arms of the government are doing something...
     psychological warfare, or psychotronic weaponry, you
     know.
Sch: We think that sometimes that a little bit of intrigue .
     . sometimes is necessary in cases as serious as this,
     um, and sometimes measures have to be taken, but I
     think, I mean, overall, I think that the phenomenon is
     something which we think will disappear very shortly.
Vic: [Bated breath!!] How, how, how, how, how, how? I mean,
     I'm sorry, but I'm  just curious - it's mind-boggling
     what you're saying!  But how, how do you know that will
     happen?
Sch: [Sigh] Well, we think that it, that people will no
     longer take notice of it, I mean, it may continue but,
     eh, it....
Vic: But why do you say phenomenon? You proved that this is
     man-made, if it's a man-made... how could it be a
     phenomena?  Or am I in the dark, or I've missed
     something somewhere?
Sch: Well, I'm, I'm, I think some of them are definitely
     man-made; I mean definately.
Vic: But, so, but so, we are suggesting that there's also a
     part to it that is genuine?
Sch: I think there is a part which is entirely sinister and
     I'm not sure how genuine it is or whether it's made by
     people but it's something very sinister and I think
     it's something that....
Vic: Are we talking about mugic, dark powers?
Sch: Possibly, yes.. and I think that it...hang on, I'm
     getting a bit. . .
Vic: It' s intriguing, when we say dark powers arewe talking
     about...  sort of Satan and that sort of thing, or are
     we talking about actually....?
Sch: AbsolutelY!
Vic: I see, I see, so there isn't any sort of military
     implication or the test of, of weaponry or anything of
     that sort, which is sinister?
Sch: Oh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that..    l think it's a
     very complex issue though.......
Vic: Are we talking about the part of the military wing
     who's under the brainwashing, or whatever, of the
     sinister forces who are doing this - you know, making
     it a bit more complex?
Sch: Well, well it's very  difficult to explain to vou -
     to explain the structure of some of these
     organisations, but......

Continued.....

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(7057)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:21
By: John Komar
To: All
Re: HUFON/CROPS, 5/9
St:                                                                  7056<>7058
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Vic: For example? Give me an example.
Sch: Why? I couldn't go into detail but, eh, basically
     it's something which is concerning people worldwide
     and have pooled their resources, worldwide, and are
     involved.....
Vic: How about the British Government? Are they also... ?
Sch: Well, yes. The German Government, the American
     government, the Vatican as well.
Vic: How about Robert? Does Robert have anything with any of
     this to help them along with it, to determine what is
     going on?
Sch: I wouldn't want to comment on the record or anything
     like that.
Vic: Of course not.
Sch: Definitely, you know....as you seem to be sympathetic
     to what we're  saying.....
Vic: Of course! What you're saying makes me worried.
     He is definitely on the good side
Sch: He is.... he is one of our best people, yes.
Vic: And he's helping the governments to determine which
     faction is doing this?
Sch: Yes, it's very... extremely sensitive, sensitive work
     as you can probably imagine.....
Vic: Is it...eh...now, let's see, are we talking about
     military, or are we talking about intelligence, are we
     talking about the negative side, you see what I ' m
     trying to say?
Sch: It's not quite a military thing but there are elements
     of military intelligence which have loaned resources.
Vic. Ahhhh! ! We are talking about people who have had a
     career, they've left their career, they have
     corporations, etc., etc., they are developing some kind
     of weaponry and these are the testing ground.
Sch: No, no, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go into that, it's
     much more of a spiritual warfare type of magic, I
     think....
Vic: And they trying to exploit the populus, I mean, what
     are they trying to achieve? This is what I'm trying to
     determine.
Sch: I think they are trying to bring about changes in world
     consciousness and for evil; for, for, you know, not for
     good and, eh, there are some of us who are concerned
     about this, and would like to see this new trend
     stopped.
Vic: Is there any positive element in the government
     who are supporting people like yourself or Robert or
     anybody else for that mattter?
Sch: We have support, yes, we have support at the highest
     levels.
Vic: That's marvelous -is it British government ....or...
     forgive me, I'm not trying to be a nosy parker.
Sch: It involves several countries and as I say.....
Vic: Are we talking NATO allies or are we talking
     about...........    ?  Sch: NATO ?...it's not at the
     NATO level, but it's Germany involved, and this
     country, and the United States...  the Vatican as well.
Vic: I see...I...   are we talking about...?
Sch: It's actually, it in volves a supernational
     organisation which I will not name.
Vic: [Gasp]Supernational !!!
Sch: Supernational organisation.
Vic: Oh, good God !
Sch: Which is....?
Vic. This is above my head.
Sch: Which has ties to these countries, and organisations.
Vic: Are we talking, for example trilateral, that sort
     of thing?
Sch: I wouldn't want to get into any specifics.
Vic: Do you have any information...'? I'm speculating...
Sch: It's something that is very dangerous to talk about,
     and I hope, you will, you know...
Vic: I appreciate it, I appreciate it...I mean, is it a
     mission that you volunteered or is it something that
     you actually commission people ....I mean how do
     they...?
Sch: It's...we are quite committed to it,
     put it that way. It's not a sense of duty but it's
     also.....
Vic: How about the other religions, does  that come into it
     or is it only Christian religion or just Christians
     committed to it? eh, I mean Buddhism, or Judaism or
     Islam .... you know?
Sch: I don't have a high enough overview of the whole
     situation to know. There may be some others involved.
Vic: And the information that you gather is passed on to the
     higher-ups in order to  be filtered out and deductions
     have to be taken, obviously; that should be the case?
Sch: Yes, yes..     we are not just feeding information, we
     are taking active measures.
Vic: I hope they pay for what you've done, for the time and
     all the things that you put in to it.
Sch: Well, yes...it's only natural that one should be
     reimbursed.
Vic: That goes without saying.
Sch: One has to live, you know.
Vic: That is absolutely true. How many are there? Is there
     any way I can get, sort of, you know, involved?
Sch: Well, I'll tell you, if you can, um, give me some
     information, I understand you would probably want to do
     it on a very confidential level... some information
     or...I could have someone possibly give you a call or
     visit you or something.


Continued.....

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(7058)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:22
By: John Komar
To: All
Re: HUFON/CROPS, 6/9
St:                                                                  7057<>7059
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924997
Vic: Who, who? Is it Mr. Irving who would visit me?
Sch: Oh no, it would not be Mr. Irving, it would not be Mr.
     Irving.  You know ...possibly...
Vic: Are you sure your telephone is not tapped?
Sch: My telephone? [laughs] No,no, my telephone would not be
     tapped! My telephone is a secure phone.
Vic: Give me your address, Mr. Schnabel, please.
Sch: Um, well, ...[hesitation]... all right,
     it's, it's, um.... you can reach me, care of... I have
     to give you a sort of a safe, a safe box...
Vic: Of course!
Sch: . . . because I don't actually live here,
     but it's: c/o Lincoln College.
Vic: LincolnCollege? OK,which school in Lincoln!
Sch: Lincoln College, Oxford.
Vic: Oxford ? Ah ha!
Sch: That's all you need to do, just: care
     of...To Jim Schnabel, c/o Lincoln College, Oxford.
Vic: I would be able to reach you there?
Sch: Yes.
Vic: OK. And if I actually wanted to put anything in it
     I would be hopefully visited by somebody?
Sch: Sorry?
Vic: I would be briefed about how I can start, you know,
     etc., etc.?
Sch: Yes, I mean... if you give me some information........

[This section is intentionally omitted.]

A second call is then made on the following day:

Vic: Mr Schnabel?
Sch: Yes.
Vic: Hello, this is Ntumba speaking. I put something into
     the post for you today.
Sch: Ah, good, good.
Vic: It will be with you if all goes well, hopefully by
     Tuesday - you know how well your mail works...
Sch: No, I think today is a bank holiday,
     so there won't be any mail through.
Vic: Well, I had first class stamps so I did that... Now,
     I remember when this, eh, ******* came here, who...you
     know when you said to me... has been a very good
     source..
there was another man...
Sch: Excuse me, just let me pull the phone into my room here
     to be private.
Vic: OK, of course.

[ Very long pause ensues]

Sch: Yes, right.
Vic: Is it better?
Sch: Yes.
Vic: OK. You remember last time when we were speaking you
     said that, you know, ******* has been a good source
     with regard to promoting the cause.
Sch: Yes, yes.
Vic: I remember that when ******* came here there was also
     another person.
Sch: Yes.
Vic: Do you know who he was?
Sch: His name is #####.
Vic: Ahhhh! He was very quiet. Is he also working in the
     same way?
Sch: I wouldn't want to speak about further things, I mean
     it's extremely sensitive, I really shouldn't have told
     you all that I've told you already...and unfortunately
     at the moment I'm quite busy with some things, but um,
     do send the material and perhaps... l'll tell you
     here's um, a ...I'm trying to think.  Will you ...
     [massive hesitation]l...oh, no, no, if you send the
     material to Lincoln College;   send some indication of
     where you can be reached.
Vic: O.K.
Sch: We can discuss things further, someone else will
     contact you, and eh, it won't be me, it will be a much
     more senior person in the organisation and then
     subsequently, eh, you know, if things work out well and
     more information can be shared with you.
Vic: The reason that I mentioned about that gentleman ...
     because he was talking almost on a similar line, you
     know, that you were talking in many ways... do you see
     what I'm saying?
Sch: I really couldn't comment further on him, I wouldn't
     want to compromise his position.
Vic: I see ! Well, I hope that, you know...that the mission
     will be acomplished and that, you know, after all this
     time.  Has there been any good witness.. ?
Sch: We have no doubt of success.
Vic: Well I'm delighted to hear that.  Now, about the
     payment. How do we claim for the expenses, etc., you
     know, how do we go about this usually?  I mean, how do
     you go about that?


Continued.....

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(7059)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:23
By: John Komar
To: All
Re: HUFON/CROPS, 7/9
St:                                                                  7058<>7060
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924998
Sch: Well, that will be arranged and explained to you if,
     if, if...[mumble, mumble]
Vic: Is it on a monthly basis?
Sch: If you are found to be a suitable candidate -- it's
     extremely generous, don't worry about that.
Vic: OK. You know there is a great deal of travelling
     backward and forward, you know, as you are involved in
     this...
Sch: You will be expected to travel internationally.
Vic: Oh, what .... that's fascinating, that is absolutely
     fascinating.  What sort of data, you know, they would
     be expecting from my side to be gathered, to be
     collected for the cause?  Sch: It woutd be not only
     gathering data but also taking active measures,
     possibly conducting disinformation campaigns and other
     measures.
Vlc: In order to safeguard the initial whatever it is, isn't
     it, the ultimate goal.
Sch: Yes. it's extremely complex, I mean I think you were...
     you touched upon it briefly last night when you
     mentioned the weapon...
Vic: I was very much impressed.....
Sch: The weapons systems, I mean there's the element of the
     weapons testing and there's the second element of the,
     eh, attempt to use the phenomenon of the circles to
     discredit the New Age movement and other such
     movements.
Vic: Ahhhh ! I see.
Sch: It's extremely complex and much more will be explained
     to you if it's appropriate at a further time.
Vic: Of course, of course.....  Sch: Don't worry about
     payment, I mean, it's very generous.....
Vic: No, that's not my worry......
Sch: It's extremely strenuous work and...the organisation
     realises that, um, you know, sometimes people become
     burned out after a few years but usually they've made
     enough money that they are able to retire - you know,
     after a few years anyway.... it's very generous.
VIC: That's facscinating...and the gentleman, or the person
     rather, who would be meeting me should my you know,
     whatever become serious, would he be, or would she be,
     an American or would she be English or different... you
     know?
Sch: I'm not sure yet which organisation, I mean, that's not
     my decision - which person in the organisation, I mean,
     that's not my decision.  It could be someone from
     almost.
Vic: But, but, I mean what is the organisation that I would
     be dealing with?
Sch: Well, I think that will all be explained to you.
Vic: Oh, I see. When, if and when, I'm taken in.
Sch: Yes.

[Break]

Vic: How about Colin Andrews' group - do you have any
     section with a remit in Colin Andrews' group or not?
Sch: We have, eh...we have people in every group.
Vic: Fascinating, fascinating, that's absolutely, you know,
     it's interesting to hear. As I said earlier, the
     machinery is already into the post so the best thing is
     I wait to hear further from you.
Sch: Yes, OK, good
Vic: OK. Thank you very much indeed for your time again.
Sch: God bless.
Vic: God bless you too. Bye bye.

The following summary of "Confession Of A Crop Circle Spy"
by James Schnabel is very brief as the original document in
the November 1992 Mufon UFO Journal is five pages long.
Dennis Stacy, the Journal's Editor, begins the article with
a half page introduction. Stacy's comments center around the
thought process regarding both UFO's and crop circles and
how they are perceived and possible related. Also, he notes
the lessons to be learned when hoaxing, fear of government
agents and conspiracies and, as this article painfully
illuminates, a wide spread paranoia begins to grip all those
individuals who are intimately, and publicly, involved with
both phenomena.

( Note that James Schnabel, by himself, won 2nd prize in the
circle making competition in England, at West Wycome, July
11-12, 1992...He also wrote an article on "The Art of
Circular Science" for The Cerealogist, No.  7, Harvest 1992,
which will be available from the HUFON library in Jan.  93.)

Continued......

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(7060)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:23
By: John Komar
To: All
Re: HUFON/CROPS, 8/9
St:                                                                  7059<>7061
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924999
James Schnabel begins his article by describing numerous
unnamed crop circle researchers as "vociferous spycriers".
The story that follows is what Schnabel claims happened when
in a light-hearted moment he suggested to an inquirer,
"Cassave Ntumba", that "yes, it was all true, he was indeed
a spy". The phone interviews actually began with Ntumba
calling Rob Irving, a photographer who had worked with
Schnabel on a London newspaper article about one of the
circle-making groups active in Wiltshire. Schnabel says that
Irving recognized Ntumba as Henry Azadehdel, recalling Henry
as the person who authored a story last year about Doug
Bower and Dave Chorley being spies.(remember the Doug and
Dave scam?) Irving reportedly recorded the conversation, and
immediately afterwards called Schnabel and a "spy-chase"
plan was conceived. There were several lengthy phone
conversations between Irving and Ntumba, and Schnabel and
Ntumba. Schnabel summarizes most of these but adds something
to the first conversation that I could not find in the
suppressed interview.  The "Plan", as Schnabel outlines to
Ntumba, "was meant (a) to divert attention from the ultra-
secret Stars Wars weapons testing which caused the circles".
Unless I missed something, this was not in the original text
of the Circular Interview.  As Schnabel unfolds his story,
he begins using single letter references to various
individuals leaving the reader to only "guess" as to their
identity. One example is: "So I telephoned W and asked him
to relay to the elusive zadehdel that the whole thing had
been a send up. I hope-I said-that you have enough sense of
humor to see that this was all done in fun. To which W
responded: well I'm not sure I do, Jim.  I mean, I wouldn't
be in the lease bit surprised if you were a spy". Other
lettered identities in the story are: R, E, G, F, T, D, U, M
and G, C and his good friend B.  The "Plan", as Schnabel
calls it, received much notoriety following the Ntumba
interview.  The worst unmasking according to Schnabel
occurred at the UFO meet at the Leeds Civic Theater, in
England, where Armen Victorian (aka: Ntumba) was to present
taped conversations of international debunkers.  The taped
interview between Victorian and Schnabel was played causing
a confrontation in which Schnabel says he attempted to
convince the audience that it had all been a put-on, a sham.
Schnabel narrates only a portion of the recording in his
story. When I compared the two recorded conversations, some
sentences were not word for word. This indicates editing by
one or the other writer.  Nothing important appeared missing
in the two recorded dialogs.  The story ends with Schnabel
stating his personal feelings of the events, his believed
vindication, and his relief that W's article had been pulled
from the printers, and the article detailing The Plan
removed. However, Irving and Schnabel believe that there
still remains a "hint of unsolved mystery" to their acts as
one question still remains with the cerealogists: "How had
we known so much?"


As you can tell, the crop circle hoaxing issue is about to
come to a nasty head. Personally, I believe that there needs
to be more articles published on those persons doing valid
crop circle research and less on those interfering with the
phenomenon.

I spoke with our new contributor, Rosemary Ellen Guiley and
discovered that she had moved again. A copy of her Center's
report will be sent to me as soon as it is completed.
Meanwhile, Rosemary faxed the following comments for our
latest column.  Her new address, phone and fax numbers are
included for publication per her request.

Center For North American Crop Circle Studies
Director: Rosemary Ellen Guiley
Address: P.O. Box 4766, Lutherville, MD 21094
Phone: [phone] / Fax: [phone]

December 7, 1992

Rosemary writes:
Far too much attention was devoted this summer in crop
circle circles to allegations concerning disinformation,
conspiracy and hoaxing. Individuals alleged to be the
masterminds of a plot to debunk circles were given more
credit than they deserved by noise made by some
cereologists. The unfortunate result was to shift attention
away from solving the mystery of the phenomenon to focus on
personalities and name calling.

As for the circles themselves, in England they manifested in
as mysterious shapes as before, with the signature of
Goddess stronger than ever: snails, crescent moons, the knot
of Isis (resembling and alpha) and the mu-at, a dumbbell
with crescent that is also a sign of Isis. Overall, the
activity was more low-key than the previous year, with the
media paying scant attention to anything beyond the hoaxing
contest done in July for the amusement of humans.

Continued.....

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(7061)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:24
By: John Komar
To: All
Re: HUFON/CROPS, 9/9
St:                                                                       <7060
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e92499a
In the U.S., reported activity also was less that last year,
though reports continue to trickle in to the Center for
North American Crop Circle Studies (CNACCS). Illinois was
once again one of the more active states. The most dramatic
formation was a dumbbell in alfalfa near Fergus Falls,
Minnesota. More detailed reports will be available soon from
CNACCS and the North American Institute for Crop Circle
Research in Winnepeg.

In closing, one final comment. An unusual bit of movement
has occurred with two of the original English crop circle
researchers. It is being called the "grain drain" by
Rosemary Ellen Guiley. Seems that both Colin Andrews and
Richard Andrews (no relation) have moved their crop circle
business to America. Do they know something no one else
knows?

Stay tuned.

=END=

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin:  (1:123/26)

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<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: Hynek UFO Sightings Classifications
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 04:05:40 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 111

(6497)  Wed 27 Jan 93 20:37
By: John Komar
To: Marty Wade
Re: Hynek Classifications
St:                                                                  6496<>6826
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@MSGID: 88:88/0 2B5F5AEE
                  HYNEK  SIGHTING  REPORT  CLASSIFICATIONS
                 __________________________________________

     This is the traditional method of describing an event as a
distant or close encounter of the first, second or third kind.  The
investigator should be aware that, unless the case report can
reasonably rule out natural and man-made sources, the HYNEK rationale
declares it to be a non-case, and so no value is given.

HYNEK - __________

DE-1 - Nocturnal Light                CE-1 - Light/object in Proximity

DE-2 - Daylight Disc                  CE-3 - Physical Trace

DE-3 - Radar-visual                   CE-3 - Occupant

UFO reports differ in many details.  But there are a number of
similarities that recur in such features as shape, maneuverability,
appearance, disappearance, sound and color.  There are several basic
observational categories into which sighting reports may be
classified.

A. Relatively Distant Sightings

1. Noctunal Lights.  These are sightings of well-defined lights in the
night sky whose appearance amd/or motion are not explainable in terms
of conventional light sources.  The lights appear most often as red,
blue, orange or white.  They form the largest group of UFO reports.

2. Daylight Discs.  Daytime sightings are generally of oval or dis-
shaped, metallic-appearing objects.  They can appear high in the sky
or close to the ground, and they are often reported to hover.  They
can seem to disappear with astounding speed.

3. Radar-Visual cases.  Of special significance are unidentified
"blips" on radar screens that coincide with and confirm simultaneous
visual sightings by the same or other witnesses.  These cases are
infrequent.

B. Relatively Close Sightings (within 200 yards)

1. Close Encounters of the First Kind (CE-I).  Though the witness
observes a UFO nearby, there appears to be no interaction with either
the witness or the environment.

2. Close Encounters of the Second Kind (CE-II).  These encounters
include details of interaction between the UFO and the environment
which may vary from interference with car ignition systems and
electronic gear to miprints or burns on the ground and physical
effects on plants, animals and humans.

3. Close ENcounters of the Third Kind (CE-III).  In this category,
occupants of a UFO - entities that are human-like ("humanoid") or not
humanlike in apearance - have been reported.  There is usually no
direct contact or communication with the witness.  However, in recent
years, reports of incidents involving very close contact - even
detainment of witnesses - have increased.

The Kinds of Evidence

In addition to eyewitness reports, scientific evidence for the
presence of something very unusual falls in these categories:

1. Physical Traces.  Compressed and dehydrated vegetation, broken tree
branches, and imprints in the ground have all been reported.
Sometimes a soil sample taken from an area where a UFO had been seen
close to the ground will be determined, through laboratory analysis,
to have undergone heating or other chemical changes not true of
control sample.

2.  Medical Records.  Medical verification of burns, eye
inflammations, temporary blindness, and other physiological effects
attributed to encounters with UFOs - even the healing of previous
conditions - can also constitute evidence, especially when no other
cause for the effect can be determined by the medical examiner.

3.  Radarscope Photos.  A tape of traces from a radar screen on which
a "blip" of a UFO is appearing is a powerful adjunct to a visual
sighting, because it can be studied at leisure instead of during the
heat of the moment of the actual sighting.

4.  Photographs.  While it might seem that photographs would be the
best evidence for UFOs, this has not been the case.  Hoaxes can be
exposed very easily.  But even those photos that pass the test of
instrumented analysis and/or computer enhancement often show nothing
more than an object of unknown nature, usually some distance from the
camera, and very often out of focus.  For proper analysis of a photo,
the negative must be available and the photographer, witnesses and
circumstances must be known.  In a few exceptional cases, photos do
exist that have been thoroughly  examined and appear to show a
structured craft.

=END=

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: ░▒▓ MUFONET-BBS Network ▓▒░ 901-785-4943 (88:88/0)

@PATH: 123/26
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<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: Maritime UFO Sightings
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 04:07:57 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 97

(7099)  Fri 29 Jan 93 21:56
By: John Powell
To: All
Re: Maritime Sightings
St:                                                                       7164>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
MARITIME AERIAL PHENOMENA.  (From "Just Cause".  December 1992.)

(Just Cause, Copyright 1992 by Citizens Against UFO Secrecy, PO Box 218,
Coventry, CT 06238, published bi-monthly with a subscription rate of
$15/yr.)


     Spot checks of a government marine publication have revealed
interesting reports of strange aerial manifestations that have
largely been overlooked.  "Notice to Mariners" is a long-time
weekly of the U.S. Hydrographic Office, published since the
1800s.  The bulk of each number is devoted to reports of
lighthouse positions and schedules, hazard reports, chart
revisions; etc.  Beginning in the late 1950s reports of
"Celestial Phenomenon" crept into various issues and continued
fairly regularly into the mid-1960s.  The reports were extracted
from ships' logs, much the same way as those appearing in a
similar British serial, "The Marine Observer."

     We are in the process of surveying these issues.  Included
here are a few of the more curious entries:

From "Notice to Mariners," March 9, 1963

        Celestial Phenomenon - North Atlantic.
        Second Officer H. Rathsack of the American S.S. Overseas
        Rebecca, Capt. D.N. Dibble, Master, reported the following:  At
        0600 G.M.T. December 1, 1962, in lat. 36 degrees 27' N., long. 7
        degrees 26' W. on passage from Bordeaux to Tripoli, a mysterious
        object was observed.  It was first observed bearing 130 degrees
        altitude 20 degrees and appeared to be a comet with its tail
        almost reaching the horizon.  Later it appeared more like an
        atomic mushroom.  It was visible about 40 minutes and faded away
        with the sunrise.  Barometer 1022.4 millibars, air temperature
        14.4 degrees C., sea temperature 19.4 degrees C.


From Notice to Mariners," October 28, 1961

        Celestial Phenomenon - North Pacific.
        Second Officer William C. Ash of the American S.S. Iberville,
        Capt. M.O. Vinson, Master, reported the following:  "At 1700
        G.M.T. on September 21, 1961, while in lat. 31 degrees 30' N.,
        long. 175 degrees 30' E., a few minutes before morning twilight,
        a white opaque mass about twice the size of a full moon appeared
        in the northwest at an elevation of about 20 degrees.  It
        continued to climb toward the zenith and at about an elevation
        of 40 degrees the mass opened gradually to appear as a huge halo
        with a satellite in the center having very nearly the brightness
        of a first magnitude star.  By the time it reached the zenith it
        had more than doubled in size reaching its maximum at the zenith
        and then diminishing as it proceeded to the southeast.  As it
        diminished it continued to decrease in size but did not appear
        to shrink into a corona as it had appeared but rather faded out
        completely at an elevation of approximately 20 degrees.  The
        entire mass was in view for approximately 8 to 10 minutes."
        Weather partly cloudy, wind NW force 2, slight sea and small NW
        swell, temperatures: dry 74 degrees F., wet 67 degrees F., sea
        79 degrees F.

From "Notice to Mariners," May 11, 1963.

        Celestial Phenomenon - North Pacific.
        Junior Second Officer B. Gronberg of the Swedish M.V. Kungsholm,
        Capt. H. Solje, Master, reported the following:  At 0500 G.M.T.
        April 4, 1963, in lat. 31 degrees 30' N., long. 128 degrees 53'
        W., on passage from Honolulu to Los Angeles, the following was
        observed:  A white cloud more intensive than the surrounding
        clouds was seen.  A few seconds later the cloud transformed into
        several concentric rings which become larger and larger similar
        to the rings formed when a stone is dropped into smooth water.
        In the center of the inner ring 6 or 7 bright white dots similar
        to bright stars were seen.  The phenomenon was bearing 315
        degrees altitude 45 degrees and was moving westward very
        rapidly. After about 3 minutes the dots separated into two
        groups, one group proceeded as before and the other group turned
        to the right and disappeared.  The phenomenon lasted about 7
        minutes.  Weather partly cloudy with good visibility, wind NE
        force 1, temperatures:  dry 20.0 degrees C., wet 16.8 degrees C.

--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

--- FMail 0.92
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[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
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Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:13409 sci.skeptic:38691
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: Aussie Abductions
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 04:12:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 392

(6429)  Mon 25 Jan 93 22:02
By: Marty Wade
To: All
Re: Ausie stories         1/
St:                                                                       6430>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 9:1036/0.0 2b64a9aa

This is an (uncharacteristic) article lifted from the Australian
Woman's Day magazine. February 1993. Copyright? Who knows. So
sue me.

                         CLOSE ENCOUNTERS
                         ----------------

We journey into the twilight zone with three people who recall,
under hypnosis, their astonishing experiences of alien abduction
- and bizarre experiments.

    You may find some of the facts far-fetched. Others you may
feel are simply figments of people's imaginations - but they
will all make you think twice about UFOs.
    We take a look at three close encounters, accounts by people
whom UFO experts believe have been abducted by
extra-terrestrials, and talk to an Adelaide farmer who believes
his property was used as a landing site.
    Roy Lake, 53 chairman of UFO Studies, an international
organisation with its head office in London, has been studying
UFOs for 33 years. He formed his group two years ago with three
people, and now has 18 investigators.  "The subject goes a lot
further than the public's perception of little green men," Roy
says.
    "When you mention abductions and flying saucers, people
ridicule it. But you can't dispute the evidence that is
materialising to the contrary. And unfortunately, a lot of
prople are too scared to talk about it."
    Tony Dodd, 57, is the director of investigation and research
for UFO Magazine, and he had his first encounter with a UFO in
1978.  "I'm very involved with investigating abduction cases and
I'm usually present at the regression hypnosis sessions," Tony
says.  "The similarities of the stories related by the people
under hypnosis are so strong that even sceptics would change
their minds.
    "We believe the aliens are involved in genetic engineering,
but it's not new - it's been going on for centuries."  Harry
Harris, 50, a lawyer who has spent 12 years investigation
accounts of sightings, adds: "My conclusions are that these
people experience amnesia, and hypnosis is the only way they can
recall the time they've lost."            XX

              +----------------------------------------+
              |        UFO RESEARCHERS BELIEVE         |
              |* Aliens are visiting so often that a   |
              |spaceship is spotted somewhere in the   |
              |world every 15 seconds.                 |
              |* Aliens are abducting women up to three|
              |months pregnant and snatching their     |
              |unborn babies.                          |
              |* Male abductees are being used for     |
              |bizarre experiments before being return-|
              |ed to earth unharmed.                   |
              |* If you have seen a UFO, it is likely  |
              |you have unknowingly been abducted.     |
              |* Governments are covering up sightings |
              |to prevent mass civilian panic.         |
              |* US security services are withholding  |
              |50,000 documents about UFO sightings.   |
              |* UFOs have been recorded on radar sys- |
              |tems, travelling at 25,000 km/h.        |
              +----------------------------------------+

   CLOSE ENCOUNTER NUMBER ONE.

   Housewife Linda Jones, 49, considers herself to be an
ordinary person. She is married to Trevor, who works as a
heating engineer, and they have two children.  One August
evening 13 years ago, she was out walking with her daughter and
son, aged 15 and five, collecting wild flowers along the banks
of a local river. She was bending down looking at a plant when
her son suddenly said, "Look Mum, the moon's coming towards us."
    Linda saw an orange and pink ball of light heading towards
them.  "We all ducked really low in the grass," she recalls.
"There was no noise, and at the last moment the object shot off
to the right. It went over two hills and then appeared to drop
vertically onto a field. I thought it was a plane on fire, so we
started to run towards it.  We got to within 30 metres and we
could see this massive white light with an under-structure like
a bridge, made of what looked like a mesh material," Linda says.
    "It was hovering about a metre off the ground and appeared
to have no windows or doors. It seemed to be as light as a
feather, even though it was about 18 metres across.  "Normally,
I'd run away from any danger, but I felt myself being drawn
towards it. My daughter was terrified and kept shouting, "Come
away, Mum!" But my son was quite calm.
    "As we were watching, the object kept appearing and
disappearing - it was really weird.  Eventually, we turned
around and ran off. But as we ran, the grass blew over in front
of us and the thing just followed us.
    "The object then disappeared, but shortly afterwards we
spotted it trailing a plane that was about to land at the nearby
airport."  When she got home, Linda found the skin under her
eyes was burned and scaly. She and her daughter also had violet
scars on their left legs.
    Eighteen months later, Harry Harris, the lawyer who works
with Roy Lake, contacted Linda and persuaded her and her
daughter to be hypnotised. They gave their consent and, while
under hypnosis, were videotaped. Both related the same chain of
events.  "I was running downhill and bumped into a tall human
figure, then everthing blurred," Linda says on one of the
videotapes.
    "I then experienced a sensation of floating. Next I was on a
table being examined and I had a feeling of ice being put on my
legs. There were six very tall people who looked like clones.
They wore dark overalls up to their necks, their hair was dark
and their eyes were black and almond-shaped."

    Linda still cannot consciously recall this event. We have
not named her children because her son is terrified of reliving
the sighting  and, although now a teenager, he sleeps with the
light on.  Linda's daughter is now married and refuses even to
discuss the subject because she is afraid that people will mock
her.
    After the incident, Linda's periods stopped (she was 36
years old), and she has since had problems with a lump in her
neck that keeps appearing a disappearing. "I even went into
hospital to have the lump removed. When the surgeon came for a
last check, he found it had disappeared, so the operation was
cancelled. At the moment, it's back.  I feel like an idiot
because I know all this is not normal," Linda says.
    "I just wish more people who have had similar experiences
would come forward, because it would help me feel easier about
the whole thing."    XX


    CLOSE ENCOUNTER NUMBER TWO.

    It was 5:15 am and policeman Alan Godfrey, 34, was thinking
about going home after a night on patrol.  Suddenly, he saw what
he thought was a bus. But later, in a taped interview, he said,
"I realised it wasn't a bus. It was about six metres wide and
four metres high, hovering just over a metre above the ground.
The bottom half was spinning and there was a row of darkened
windows and a dome on top."
    When he tried to report back to his headquarters, neither
his car radio nor his pocket walkie-talkie would work. He started
sketching the UFO, but it suddenly vanished. At first, he did
not want to report the incident because he was afraid of
sounding foolish. When he discovered that five other policemen
had reported a UFO at much the same time, he decided to come
clean.
    What mystifies Alan is that the reports were never
investigated.  "I wish now I'd slapped a parking ticket on it,
>>> Continued to next message

 * SLMR 2.1a * eXTegMiNATe...eXTegMiNATe...eXTegMiNATe!!!

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: The NTH Dimension. Brisbane. (9:1036/0)

@PATH: 1036/0 1030/0 123/26

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(6430)  Mon 25 Jan 93 22:02
By: Marty Wade
To: All
Re: Ausie stories         2/
St:                                                                  6429<>6431
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 9:1036/0.0 2b64a9ac
>>> Continued from previous message
because then at least some bureaucrat would have wanted to know
why the fine hadn't been paid," Alan jokes.  Another odd thing
was that when UFO researchers visited Alan, they discovered that
at least 15 minutes of that night were missing from his detailed
log entry of the event.

    A year later, Alan was persuaded to undergo a technique
called regression hypnosis - which is used by police enforcement
bodies throughout the world.  Hypnosis enables witnesses of
crimes to remember in great detail facts that their concious
minds either disregard of suppress.
    In all, Alan has been hypnotised five times and each time
his story is the same. On each occasion, he was videotaped. The
following is a small extract from one videotape;
    "I'm in a room now ... there's a table." (Horror on his
face.) "There's him. Don't know who the 'him' is. About 180cm,
like a man. He's got a sort of black and white sheet on. He has
a beard and something like a skull cap." (Alan's face distorts
with fear.) "They're horrible. He's touching me. He's feeling at
the cloth ... at my clothes. They have hands and heads like a
lamp. They're making noises."
    He stretches his lips and makes a high-pitched warbling
noise, imitating the sound. "Joseph. I know he's Joseph. He told
me not to be scared.  These are robots. They're not humans.
There's a dog. I think it's a dog. It's horrible.  Joseph is
leading me to a table. It's a bed. It looks like  black
leather. He wants me to get on it - not likely!
    "Now I'm getting on to the bed. I don't know why. There's a
light ..."  The stress was so great at this point that the
psychiatrist, taking a reading from the heart monitor to which
Alan was wired, stopped the test.
    At a later session, Alan relates in some detail an
examination that Joseph performed on him. The last thing he
recalls is the aliens removing his boots and looking at his
toes.  Alan later says that after seeing the craft hovering, and
blanking out, he found himself back in the police car, with one
boot split and a circular burn on his left instep.
    So what was his reaction when he was shown the videotapes of
his hypnosis sessions?  "I was absolutely shocked. I still can't
conciously recall any of it."  Another baffling fact is that
several years before Alan's encounter, doctors said he was
unable to father children after being beaten up on duty.
    But a few years after his encounter, his son John was born.
Alan has since had a vasectomy.  He says of his experience: "I
wish it hadn't happened. I'm just an ordinary bloke just trying
to do my job."        XX


    CLOSE ENCOUNTER NUMBER THREE.

    Until now, Maria, 34, has been reluctant to talk publicly
about her close encounters with UFOs because she does not want
to be ridiculed.  But she now believes the subject deserves to
be treated more seriously, so has decided - with reservations -
to break her silence.
    Maria still does not want her full name revealed. Her
experiences are fascinating becuase, unlike Linda and Alan,
Maria has never been subjected to hypnosis.  It was Novenber
1990, when Maria, an agricultural research assistant,
experienced a UFO sighting that was to trigger apparent past
memories of the alien kind.
    "My husband was away when I was abducted from my bedroom,"
she says.  "I was left with physical injuries - a patch of hair
missing from the back of my head, a circular patch of seven
pinpricks on my little finger. Twice I had pregnancies confirmed
by my doctor, then in the third month I was mysteriously not
pregnant."
    Maria describes the encounter:  "I was fast asleep when
suddenly I felt as though unseen hands were shaking me. I sat up
and looked at the clock. It was 3:40am. I felt compelled to look
out the window, so I got out of bed. At first I remember
thinking, with a smile on my face, 'Oh, look, it's Father
Christmas'.
    "There were lights shimmering, then this wheel of light just
came cartwheeling down into the garden. I panicked and ran into
the hall where I saw a light. I was then told - not by a voice
but by thought transference - to look at this light and that it
wouldn't hurt me. As much as I tried not to look, I couldn't
stop myself.
    "Next thing it was 90 minutes later and I was sitting in
bed. My feet were dirty. There was blood on my pillow. I
couldn't recall what had happened.  "Over the past few years I
have had flashbacks to that night. I have not been hypnotised,
but I have spontaneously remembered things.
    "I recalled being walked down this long corridor by three
small beings. They were a bronze colour and smelt terrible -
like rotten mushrooms. I was then laid on a metallic table. I
can remember certain things being done to me. My head and hair
being held and a tremendously sharp pain at the back of my head
- that must have been when my hair disappeared. The most
frightening thing, though, was having a glass tube put up my
nose. At that point, I thought they were going to kill me. I can
remember thinking, 'I don't want to die like this'. The pain was
considerable.
    "A few days later, I went to my doctor who referred me to a
hospital consultant who could find no reason for my injuries. In
fact, tests came back saying there was unusual cellular damage
as well as a soft tissue injury to my cervix. They could not
account for this. I have the signed medical records from my
doctor and hospital consultant to prove it.
    "It's easy for people to say aliens don't exist, but
physical symptoms don't just appear," says Maria.

    She says she doesn't like "ET theory", which goes against
everything she believes in - "but something's going on. They are
very real, but where they come from, I don't know. It's as
though some external thing is saying to me, 'Right, today you
will remember this'. I've no doubt at all that it's a specific
course - a programmed course - and all of us are given just
parts of the puzzle.
    "I feel aliens are around me a great deal. There have been a
lot of UFO sightings in the area where I live - most recently
only a few weeks ago.  "I don't want to be hypnotised, because
conscioulsy I know my mind couldn't cope with the experience.
But on the other hand - perhaps I really don't want to know."
      XX     Story: John Moore.


    ALIENS IN ADELAIDE.

    Adelaide Hills grazier Andrew Davidson is frankly baffled.
What spooked one of his horses to go into a wild, galloping,
whinnying panic for a couple of nights recently? What caused a
big, egg-shaped "circle" to appear mysteriously on a remote
paddock about the same time?
    "It's almost as if you'd brought a huge branding iron down
and went whoooosh and pulled it up again," Andrew says, shaking
his head.  "Like putting a brand on the hide of a cow - but the
strange thing is, the grass isn't burned. It's more like it has
had the life sucked out of it and been left lying down in flat
patterns."
    Andrew, who owns a large sheep farm 35km east of Adelaide,
points out the odd patterns - one clockwise, the other
anti-clockwise. The dead grass patch [ring] is 56cm wide, forming
an egg shape 22 metres by 13 metres. "There were no wheel marks
- no trucks or tractors or rollers," Andrew says. "My mate can
back me on that." (There were definately no signs of tracks when
we went to the site 11 days later)
    Andrew's friend John Purvis was the first to find the circle
as he cut across the paddock to get wood for his fire early on
november 16.  "The untouched surroundings really puzzled me. I
raced home (he lives in a cottage on the property), got my video
camera and recorded it.
    "It was weird about our horse, too. He was in the same
paddock as the circle, and a few nights before I found it, he
>>> Continued to next message

 * SLMR 2.1a * eXTegMiNATe...eXTegMiNATe...eXTegMiNATe!!!

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: The NTH Dimension. Brisbane. (9:1036/0)

@PATH: 1036/0 1030/0 123/26

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(6431)  Mon 25 Jan 93 22:02
By: Marty Wade
To: All
Re: Ausie stories         3/
St:                                                                  6430<>6432
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 9:1036/0.0 2b64a9ae
>>> Continued from previous message
was galloping and whinnying and carrying on like a mad thing."
Andrew Davidson's way of heading off the sceptics who might
think he is crazy has been to call in a group of experts to
unravel the mystery.
    "I got the agronomist from the Department of Agriculture at
Mt Barker. I wasn't there when he called, but from what I've
heard he was totally perplexed. When I talked to him later he
said, 'Look, there's no biological or agricultural explanation -
no fungus, no root-rot or weedkillers or anything like that."
    Graeme Budgen, a scientist with a consulting engineering
company who did soil and radiation tests, found strange readings
in the circle.  The salt content in the circle was 40% higher
than the rest of the paddock (a characteristic of "UFO circles")
and radiation was up.
    "The moisture content is especially weird," Graeme says.
"It's much higher on the circle than away from it, yet the soil
on the circle feels and looks dry and crumbly and the rest of
the paddock is soaking wet. There's something very strange here
and I cannot conclude what has happened. My opinion is that it's
no hoax. A hoaxer couldn't duplicate an elaborate thing like
this."   [There's a couple of very good photos, one showing the
egg-shaped 'track' from an elevated position with three men
standing inside, and one close up showing the 'dead' grass]

    Colin Norris, director of Australian International UFO
Research, agrees. "I've looked into thousands of UFO phenomena
and I can spot a fake a mile off. This is no hoax. There has
been a visit from an extra-terrestrial craft here, for sure. In
the eight weeks leading up to this I had a spate of UFO reports
around these parts. The Air Force rang me because they were
getting so many reports of lights moving and standing still in
the Adelaide Hills."
    As the evidence piles up, Andrew Davidson admits his
lifetime disbelief in UFOs has taken a battering.  Crop circles,
or "the calling cards of UFOs" as their believers call them,
were first reported in 1976 and serious research began in 1980.
One of the most controversial sites has been in the Wessex
Triangle in England - an area rich in mystical associations and
location of Stonehenge.           XX
                                   Story: Liz Johnswood.

                       ***End***

See?!  We've got some goodies Downunder too!  ;-)

Stay cool.  Marty.


 * SLMR 2.1a * eXTegMiNATe...eXTegMiNATe...eXTegMiNATe!!!

--- Maximus 2.01wb
 * Origin: The NTH Dimension. Brisbane. (9:1036/0)

@PATH: 1036/0 1030/0 123/26
--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: MUFON article - "Don't Know"
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 04:06:41 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 83

(3868)  Tue 19 Jan 93  3:19
By: John Komar
To: All
Re: Article: "Don't Know"
St:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 88:88/0 2B54DBAB
          MUFONET-BBS GROUP  -  MUFONET-BBS NETWORK
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
│              MUFON NEW YORK CITY NEWSLETTER                │
│             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~               │
│                  JUST SAY "I DON'T KNOW"                   │
│                 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                  │
│                  Author: Jack Greenfield                   │
│                                                            │
│Though I have been mystified by the UFO phenomenon for 30   │
│years, I'm at least bemused by the attitudes of many who    │
│haunt its meeting places, special events, lecture halls,    │
│magazines and...newsletters.                                │
│                                                            │
│With the certitude and messianic fervor of the chosen, they │
│expound their cherished beliefs: "I know there's an         │
│international conspiracy to keep us from the truth!" says   │
│one.  "The revelations being channelled from the Arcturians │
│are really illuminating!" gushes another.  "We have star    │
│children!" writes a lady who claims communion with          │
│Venusians.  "...A powerful force from outside mankind       │
│is...driving us...into the abyss!" exclaims a European      │
│ufologist who insists the "evidence" is mounting.  At least │
│"3.7 million" men, women and children have been abducted by │
│UFOs, concludes a recent Roper Poll - according to some.    │
│What? UFOs?  Shucks, friend, they're just a lot of "ionized │
│air," states a plasma vortex theorist, as if summarizing a  │
│stranger-than-fiction phenomenon that's been making fools of│
│folks for over 45 years.                                    │
│                                                            │
│And, meanwhile, in the midst of all the self-indulgence and │
│egospeak, the ubiquitous Phil Klass, who apparently sees    │
│himself as a minister to the misguided, and is seen by      │
│others as the Prime Minister of Misinformation and          │
│Misinterpretation, declaims, with equal acumen and          │
│assurance, that UFOs are all a lot of beguiling baloney and │
│that the very idea our government is hiding information     │
│about UFOs is...unpatriotic.  Whatever happened to the UFO  │
│mystery?  Has it finally been solved by the disinformation  │
│lobby and the same species of simpleton who, a few decades  │
│ago, would have called it "marsh gas?"                      │
│                                                            │
│Has it been levitated out of consensus reality by those who │
│channel 2,000-year-old entities, party with star people,    │
│have transcendental visions and access to revealed truths?  │
│Or has it become the tool and teething ring of "New Age"    │
│messiahs and missionaries, cultists and confabulators,      │
│hustlers and hoaxers in pursuit of emotional, psychological,│
│economic, and other misbegotten agendas?                    │
│                                                            │
│There is, still, regardless of what anyone tells you, a UFO │
│mystery.  Maybe they're extraterrestrial.  Maybe not.  There│
│is, still, an abduction mystery.  Maybe the abductors are   │
│engaging in what Flying Saucer Review calls a "broad plan of│
│generic tinkering."  Maybe not.  Maybe crop circles are the │
│work of fairies, or a sign of imminent earth changes, or    │
│clever hoaxes, or unidentified natural phenomena, or a      │
│combination thereof.  And maybe not.  Why must we have a    │
│fixed and fatuous notions regarding such phenomena?         │
│                                                            │
│Someone once claimed that just saying "I don't know," when  │
│we most assuredly do not, "know", is the beginning of       │
│wisdom.                                                     │
│                                                            │
│=END=                                                       │
└────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

--- FMail 0.92
 * Origin: ░▒▓ MUFONET-BBS Network ▓▒░ 901-785-4943 (88:88/0)

@PATH: 123/26
--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13983 alt.alien.visitors:13411 sci.skeptic:38694
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 05:54:29 GMT
Lines: 6

I just saw a trailer for the movie "Groundhog Day".
--
/|/-\/-\          This article is supplied without longbox
 |__/__/_/        and uses recycled 100% words, characters and ideas.
 |warren@
/ nysernet.org
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13984 alt.alien.visitors:13412 alt.religion.kibology:6425
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Dinosaurs.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 09:56:00 GMT
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>  Why do you post stuff taken from tabloid
> magazines? I could tell from the first couple
> sentences that it was bullshit.

Hey, some of us LIKE bullshit!

                        -- K.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: Unsolved Mysteries ufo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 FEB 93 13:08:16
Lines: 20


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Andy Hutton) writes...
>The most noticable omission I saw was that the so called fingerprint on
>the tape label wasn't sent to the FBI for checking.

Assuming the FBI traces fingerprints on demand, that is. Doubt it.

>BTW can anyone tell
>me if there is an easy way to convert a 35mm camera to enable it to make
>spectroscopic images?  I understand a lot of valuable data could be gathered
>if someone made such an analysis of a UFO sighting.

Yes. Put a prism in front of the lens. Astronomers sometimes do this to take
star shots - what you get is many little spectra of various brightness all over
the film. This works better on point sources like stars - a large object would
smear the spectrum out too much to be very useful.

This might weed out the aircraft landing lights and such...

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: SHC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Feb 93 14:47:00 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard)
Organization: Almac BBS Ltd. [phone]
Lines: 26


[e-mail] said on 1 Feb 93 14:58:49 GMT

JO/*Dear Folks: I should have said, It happens quite often or something
JO/*like that. I believe you will find the SHC stands for Spontaneous
JO/*Human Combustion a phenomena that happen and people burn up with
JO/*no apparent cause. After it happens then most people stand around

A book published in the UK, _Fire From Heaven_ documents several
interesting instances, two of which are of special note. One
involves a young woman crossing a busy street, who suddenly caught
fire and was ablaze in seconds; the other involved a doctor who
noticed a blue flame beginning to spurt from his leg. He reacted by
cupping his hands over the flame, starving it of oxygen and
extinguishing it, thus saving himself.

All the other cases described result in people burning to death, but
*not then causing surrounding furnishings to burn*. Photographic
evidence is supplied. Unfortunately, my copy is stashed away
somewhere; I'll hoik it out sometime.

 Andy ~ london ~ uk                        [e-mail]
                                   [e-mail]
---
 . SLMR 2.1a #112 . Paraphrase that metaphor, babay!

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Abduction Stats
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 15
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: gold.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1993 20:55:00 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter T.) writes:

> One statistic I am interested in is: I heard {relevant magazines, net-for you
> flamers} that ETs' don'tlike people contaminated with drugs, ie caffine, nicotene,
> etc. So does anybody have any figures here?
>
> Cheers
> Peter T.

So, according to this theory, we would have a disproportionate number of
abductees who are either muslim or LDS?  Hmmm.....
:-)  :-)

Kellie M-S
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Dinosaurs.
Date: 11 Feb 1993 13:17:28 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:
>  Why do you post stuff taken from tabloid
> magazines? I could tell from the first couple
> sentences that it was bullshit.

WELL I LIKE TO READ TOO AND I ONLY HVE A BOTTLE F SALSA AND A BAG OD WONDER
BREAD AT THE CHECKOUT SO ID ONT HAVE NUCH TIME TO READ AND I DANT AFFORT AR
SUBSRIPION SO I APPRESIATE IT WHEN SOMEON POSTS THE ATTICLWS I LIKE TO REAF
THEM DO YOU RHING THIS IS ALT.FAN.DAVEBARRY IM SURE IT WAS FOR ARCHIVAL PURPSUS
OBLY AT LEST HE;S CONTRIBITING I DONT SEE YOU MY. NICE GUY BEING HERE WHAT HAVE
YO DONE FOR ME LATELY GITLFRIEND DISEMENATIN O  THIS _IMPORTNT MESSAGE IS ENCROGED
RIGHT THE PUBLIC HAS A RITE TO NOW HAVE SOME TRSPECT FOR THERS OPINIONS AND DONT
KEPE POSTING BEFOR YOU RHING IT STUNTS YOUR FGROWTH BOY


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Subject: Re: UFO vs Paranormal Newsgroup
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: sunhc
Organization: Carl Pellonpaa Fan Club - South Chapter
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 14:28:33 GMT
Lines: 6


=>...isn't there a government First Contact Team with Psi members?
=>Sounds prudent to me.

Well there were, but they all converted to Kibology.

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From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: SHC
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 13:24:19 GMT
Lines: 13

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (G T Clark) writes:


    There was actually a small experiment on the programme I mentioned,
    where they took a leg of lamb ,wrapped it in cloth and stuck one end
    in the flame of a bunsen burner.

How absurd.  Who ever heard of spontaneous ovine combustion?
--
/|/-\/-\          This article is supplied without longbox
 |__/__/_/        and uses recycled 100% words, characters and ideas.
 |warren@
/ nysernet.org
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Abductions.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 18:29:19 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas) writes in part:
|>
|> I agree with John on the issue of FATE magazine 100% Don"t
|> throw the baby out with the bath water. Granted the title does
|> sound rather of yellow journalism. The contents though have
|> always proven to be highly informative and nearly always easy
|> to validate or invalidate; as they regard hard news.

Why do I want to read information that is easy to invalidate?

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Eddy Robinson)
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Subject: life in the universe
Distribution: world
Organization: World Domination Enterprises
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: 6
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Lines: 9
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1993 16:40:13 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]

I presume you mean we haven't found definitive evidence of a planet
*outside* the solar system. Otherwise Mars springs to mind :-)

Seriously, ISTR reading in SA that some astronomers had come to a pretty
firm conclusion about one of the planets elsewhere in the galaxy (can't
find the article ATM), on the grounds that it was obscuring the star they
were observing, while having no luminosity of it's own.
--
 Baphomet
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Pigs and UFOs.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 93 15:11:48 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 21

Subjcct: Do Pigs Survive Death?
  Ever since I was knee-high to a grasshopper preachers have been telling me
the old saying, JUST LIKE THE OLD DOG ROVER, HE'S DEATH ALL OVER. The was
meant to mean that animals don't go into the spirit world, only humans go
there.  I at this time will take on all the preachers, and make a statement
like the old song says, IT DAIN'T NECESSARILY SO. I ran across the following
sistuation that will prove my point;....Many years ago I used to receive
information from a group of people in Portland, Oregon whose leaders name
was Zelrum Karsleigh. They communicated with the space people and spiritual
people. Some of the famous people would say how things were going on the
other side.  One time Zelrum's wife died and she started to channel back
though him how things were going and what she was doing. Zelrum married
again and the second wife died and did the same except this time she talked
about her pet cat who had died and the cat was there with her.  That was
news to me because I didn't know cat could make it over into the spirit
world. So don't kick your cat because you may meet him or her beyond the
azure blue.
  There are accounts where dogs come back as ghosts. The latest case is where
a pig came back but it looks like I'm not going to get to tell you that
story, at least not yet.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Sackatchewan Sasquatch.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 93 15:15:54 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Friends and Neighbors: One of my friends from Canada informed
my that Sackatchewan is a corruption of the words Sasquatch Haven.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Bob)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.paranoia,alt.stupidity
Subject: Visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Feb 93 22:39:50 GMT
Organization: a gora
Lines: 11


[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
> The *only* thing you have succeeded in so far is
>proving outright what a CLOSED MIND and an outright Butt hole you are.
>
>Now, you are NOT going to change my position. We can argue about this
>until the crack of doom, but it isn't profitable for anyone and just
>proves to everyone what your mentality level is.

  I didn't mean to imply that you were open-minded.
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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALIEN TYPES
Keywords: cia, rothschilds, rockefellers, mj12, eat my shorts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Feb 93 21:12:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Hi,
>
>A while back there was a listing posted about types
>of alien visitors.....the greys, the guys in trench coats
>etc., etc.,
>
>Does anyone still have a copy of that list?  If so
>could you email me a copy?
>
>Thanks
>
>DRN

Hang loose dude! I'm the one who posted it and will post so
again come this teusday...right now i dont have the time to
grep the dir structure and pull the file in!

Len

HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY!
        :^)

--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (shelia c kinney)
Subject: Re: Brief Summary of Roswell crash please
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: nx20.mik.uky.edu
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1993 03:03:47 GMT
Lines: 6

What the hell?  I am new to reading this post and this "entry" confused
the bejeezus outta me.  What/who/when was that conversation from?
It didn't mention anything about a crash that I could tell.  Help me
understand, 'cause that sounds really trippy.

   -Tweedlebitch
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alternative 3 - Mars NASA tapes
Date: 15 Feb 1993 02:57:01 GMT
Organization: werple public-access unix, Melbourne
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zikzak.apana.org.au
Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (deRivas, Luis) writes:
>>From: [e-mail] (deRivas, Luis)
>
>>        I've heard that there was a T.V. program in England circa '76-'79 that
>>explored the dissapeareces of many scientists world wide, and came up with
>>a NASA tape that, supposedly genuine and could only be played with NASA
>>equipment, showed that Mars could indeed support life and was a joint
>>American/Soviet project. The tape was "supposedly" telemetry from a mission
>>in 1962, and kept secret for ulterior motives.
>

This sounds remarkably similar to something that I watced on TV quite some time ago.
The program went on about a video tape that people were prepared to kill
for,a whole bunch of terrified witneses, and was made in a expose, inquiring,
documentary style. Any way at the end someone received a circuit board
which allowed them to decipher the tape. Playing te tape showed the mars
surface and then something wriggling under the sand, with the apropriate
awe struck comments of the NASA tape narrator.

I was stunned to say the least, anyway that was the end of the film, and
after the credits rolled through a local tv spokesman came on to say "well
I hope you all enjoyed that little bit of FICTION" .  GRRR the tv almost
went out the window , obviusly a recent Orson Wells impersonator.
Cheap stunt for ratings.

Cheers
Peter T.
Not as gullible as before.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter T.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Abduction Stats
Date: 15 Feb 1993 03:08:09 GMT
Organization: werple public-access unix, Melbourne
Lines: 20
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Newsreader: MS Windows WinVN

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter T.) writes:
>
>> One statistic I am interested in is: I heard {relevant magazines, net-for you
>> flamers} that ETs' don'tlike people contaminated with drugs, ie caffine, nicotene,
>> etc. So does anybody have any figures here?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Peter T.
>So, according to this theory, we would have a disproportionate number of
>abductees who are either muslim or LDS?  Hmmm.....
>:-)  :-)
>
>Kellie M-S
>[e-mail]
Don't muslims drink coffee ???? or smoke?
Um what is LDS short for?

Peter T.
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Bob)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Fakeable Crop Circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Feb 93 06:10:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: a gora
Lines: 6

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>I'm inclined to agree. The cynics will inevitably view it as fakery or
>whatver, but I really can't see the motivation for it.


  They're just making fun of UFO believers and other saps.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (J.J. Varley)
Subject: Re: Abduction Stats
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA
Date: 15 Feb 93 00:24:40 PST
Message-ID: <1993Feb15.002440.4176@crash>
Summary: LDS
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter T.) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:
>>
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter T.) writes:
>>
>>> One statistic I am interested in is: I heard {relevant magazines, net-for you
>>> flamers} that ETs' don'tlike people contaminated with drugs, ie caffine, nicotene,
>>> etc. So does anybody have any figures here?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Peter T.
>>So, according to this theory, we would have a disproportionate number of
>>abductees who are either muslim or LDS?  Hmmm.....
>>
u
>Don't muslims drink coffee ???? or smoke?
>Um what is LDS short for


LDS = Latter Day Saint, I.E. Mormon, those folks with the big
tabernacle in Salt Lake City.


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From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Government and aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Feb 93 11:43:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

>Question... Since there are meta-operants around these days (I should
>know, I WAS one as a child), does the government hire them to be the First
>Contact team? If not, why not? Wouldn't it be prudent to find out as much as

Don't be silly; the operants run the world governments. How could it
be any other way... ;-)

--
Alan
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From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alternative 3 - Mars NASA tapes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Feb 93 12:02:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff Bytof) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (deRivas, Luis) writes:
>>From: [e-mail] (deRivas, Luis)
>
>>        I've heard that there was a T.V. program in England circa '76-'79 that
>>explored the dissapeareces of many scientists world wide, and came up with
>>a NASA tape that, supposedly genuine and could only be played with NASA
>>equipment, showed that Mars could indeed support life and was a joint
>>American/Soviet project. The tape was "supposedly" telemetry from a mission
>>in 1962, and kept secret for ulterior motives.
>
> I recall that observations of Mars in the early 60's tended to overestimate
> the water vapor content of the atmosphere.  There were also statements
> being made by astronomers that chlorophyll had been detected on Mars.
> Unfortunately, observations from
> Mariners 4, 6&7, 9, Viking 1&2 and the Phobos spacecrafts
> confirmed that these early views of conditions on the surface of Mars

Alternative 3 claimed that the Viking missions were faked. Not that
I believe this but that's what it said.

--
Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology       Internet: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]                 Int: [phone]
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
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From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Abduction Stats
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Feb 93 12:10:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter T.) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) says:
>>What percentage of abductees/experiencers are physically
>>challenged/handicapped?
> Sorry, don't have an answer for that. But......
>
>>You would think that physically challenged/handicapped  would put up less
>>of a fight to the captors/abductors & make easier prey.
>
> Assuming that ET abductors use mind controll on their victims, then anyone
> would be putty in their hands.

Nonsense. Any aliens coming near me had better watch out for their
own minds.

>
> Also if these are abducting people for genetic purposes, then I assume they
> would avoid people with genetic handicaps.
>
> One statistic I am interested in is: I heard {relevant magazines, net-for you
> flamers} that ETs' don'tlike people contaminated with drugs, ie caffine, nicotene,

"Honest officer. I'm only dropping acid to fend off alien attack. Please
don't lock me up."


> etc. So does anybody have any figures here?
>
> Cheers
> Peter T.
--
Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology       Internet: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]                 Int: [phone]
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
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From: [e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 60 Minutes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Feb 93 12:28:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 41

[e-mail] (Tom Gorski) writes:

> Okay, this is going back a few years, so you "old timers," listen up! :-)
>
> Does anyone remember seeing an episode of "60 Minutes" (a weekly
newsmagazine
> here in the US that's been running on Sunday evenings for over two decades
> now) from the early/mid seventies, in which our investigative heroes
> dug into the allegations that alien bodies were kept in storage on an
> AFB?  I think the story was about a place called "hangar 19."
>
> When the story first aired, I was just a wee lad of 10 or so.  I remember
> seeing the intro to it at the start of the program, and saying "oh boy,
> this will be cool!"  Alas, I was then soon called to dinner, and missed
> the episode.
>
> Given the program's generally-held reputation for running stories of
> some substance, I've often wondered if anything came of that program,
> or if this was one of those odd chances where an informant had sent
> the editors of the program on a fool's errand.
>
> Anybody remember back that far?
>
> --TG

I KNEW IT! That God-Hating Atheist MIKE WALLACE and his LIBERAL ILK at CBS
are involved in the COSMIC CONSPIRACY along with the CFR, the BILDERBURGERS,
the TRILATTERALISTS, ACT-UP and HILLARY CLINTON to help the UFO BEINGS FROM
ZETA RATICULII in their GODDLESS plot to DESTROY AMERICA, impose a ONE-WORLD
GOVERNMENT and CONFISCATE OUR GUNS!

I KNEW IT!

Just you WAIT 'til I tell Mr. Cooper!

Marquis de "Do you think that they could wait to invade until after the
Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue?" Freud

------
[e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
The Cellar BBS - [phone]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Genesis Revisited
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 06:21:27 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear People: I have read most of the books mentioned and found them
to be very good. Another book by Sitchin is called The Twelfth
Planet. It talks about a group of space people who made the human
race as we know it. It is said these people are said to be coming
into our area again soon.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: N.E. Ohio Center for ET Studies
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 06:29:59 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Sky Watchers: I hope you have good luck in finding open-minded
people to help you in your group. The person you describe seems to
have had about the same experiences that I have experienced. It seems
the space people and other dimensional beings always have enought time
to cooperate with Earthlings who are sincerly seeking truth.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: meta this meta that..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 06:44:29 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear Smart People: It's good to see that Blondie (Heidi) has finally
suceeded in posting to the Net. She is a very tender type of person
and I hope that everyone will treat her in a good way. As I have said
before please try to limit you lines to about 70 letters so people
can read them all at one time on the screen. Heidi is good at Remote
Viewing and tonight (monday) at 1100 pm Calif. Pacific Standard Time
in her words, she plans to sing her head off. She hopes to send her
singing by telepathy to meself, my friend Sergey in Russia, and Lady
L. in Canada. Go for it Heidi. She lives south of Las Vegas.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO vs Paranormal Newsgroup
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 06:57:52 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

Dear Wonderful People:
I believe you will find that the government spends quite a few of our
tax dollars dollars training people to do Remote Spying using Remote Viewing.
Robert Stanley (the person who I went on a tour of the ancient city
next Malibu, Calif with) told me that he had met some of these people before
who were being trained for this work and they were really paranoid
in that they always thought someone else was watching them. Our government
is not so dumb.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: name-calling by Peter and the like
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 07:43:06 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 12

Dear People: Well it seems that a few of the people are giving
Blondie a hard time. It seems that the squeeking wheel always gets
the grease. Their is a great number of good people on this Net and
they usually stand by without saying a word because a few of the
people have what I call the Bitbull attitude towards a thought that
is not their own. It has always been this way on our Earth. They killed
people who said the world was round. We hang people on trees who say
love your neighbor. Now people are saying look up and the rest of the
pigs in the pen are saying, "Be carefull you'll offend the master and
he might stop bringing us that wonderful slop." Hang in there Blondie
we shall overcome. We'll get out of this pig pen one way or another.
John Winston.
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Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1993 10:39:54 CST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Winchester Wing (?)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

See the March(?) 93 issue of Popular Science.  It has a cover story on
Aurora and
similar aircraft(one of which looks like a glowing triangle).
Ethan Haslett
[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: UFO Crash
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1993 17:26:19 GMT
Lines: 13

DJ,

Where is the rest of the address for the police commissioners office?

Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$| The
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,| Nite
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."                  | Net
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$|
Knight
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Body Circle Marks.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 09:14:59 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 40

Subject: Abductions.
  In the past I have interviewed people who have been abducted and seen the
marks left on their bodies. One of these people had a birthmark that looked
a lot like a star map on his back. At an other time I have gone to the
desert and had my friend remember being worked on by the space people and
implanting something in this neck. It left a small red bump that last about
2 weeks and then it went away.
  Now some more information has come through on this subject so here we
go;.....Those mysterious designs in farm fields that have baffled scientists
in Britain are showing up again - on the bodies of people abducted by UFOs
  The so-called UBMs - unidentified body markings - were reported in 60
percent of the kidnapping cases over the last three years to a hotline run
by the UFO Research Institute of Canada.
  "UBMs can be easily seen under a fluorescent tube ultraviolet lamp," a
spokeman for the group says.
  "Some of the abductees also reported numbness underneath parts of their
skin, sometimes going deeply into muscle tissue, as if novocain had been
injected."
  American UFO investigators conducting their own surveys say the markings are
also showing  up on the skin of abductees from the U.S. "The victims appear
to be people who have no reason to lie, and in many cases participated in
these surveys with great reluctance," says Los Angles psychologist Dr.
Gregory Bork, founder of the Center for the Study of Crop Circles and
Related Phenomena.
  John Sharpe, a 40-year-old Treton, New Jersey, longhaul trucker, noticed the
circular-shaped bruises and burns on his upper arms and chest as he relaxed
inside a tanning room at an Ohio truck stop.  "The markings, which could
only be seen under ultrviolet rays, showed up after Mr. Sarpe was unable to
account for 10 hours of his time on the previous day," Bork says.
  "However, under hypnosis, he recalled being questioned and examined for
hours aboard an alien UFO.
  "Since these markings are practically invisible under normal daylight
conditions, God only knows how many people may be walking around with these
strange circles on their bodies."
  Dr. Carlysle Mumphrey, a British UFO expert, explains: "It suggests an
attempt by extraterrestrials to communicate their presence to us. They are
trying to get up close and personal."
JW. How about that? Have you had any marks on you lately?
Source of Information: February 9, 1993/EXAMINER. page 5.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Stig Atle Haugdahl)
Subject: Re: meta this meta that..
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Mon, 15 Feb 93 06:44:29 PST
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9
Sender: [e-mail] (NetNews Administrator)
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology / SINTEF, Trondheim, Norway
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Feb 93 18:55:52
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> My hero [e-mail] writes:
>

> ....... As I have said
> before please try to limit you lines to about 70 letters so people
> can read them all at one time on the screen.....

Look, he even has a sense of humour!!!!!!!

--
--------------------------------------------------
bibamus crapulam amici         ///|\\\
mox nox mundi ultima veniet    | o o |
volo amans moriri               \ - /
-----------------------stig----------------(tm)---

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin J. Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: The U/M Guardian case: FACTS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: Also shown on Sightings (FOX)
Keywords: Canada, Carp, Area 51, Guardian, video
Sender: [e-mail] (The News)
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1993 20:03:27 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (barry.o.olson) writes:
>Even though the G's documents are not taken seriously, that
>should not obscure what looks like a very strange phenomenon
>on film. If the film segment was staged, hell it would be worth
>it to find the person responsible and hire them on as the next
>special effects engineer for Star Trek deep throat Nine(er, space).
>That is the best special effects footage I have ever seen.

The Unsolved Mysteries that showed the Guardian tape was deleted in Madison due
to a basketball game; however, last Friday's Sightings also showed the vid. I
must say, I was unimpressed. The only thing that moved in the scene was the
police-car-like light atop the disk. Now, if a great big saucer landed in YOUR
backyard and you had your camcorder handy and were taping the thing, would you
not be at least intrigued enough to keep filming until it left? At least in the
footage Sightings showed, the disk just sat there.

If you don't think it was a hoax, then perhaps you feel Guardian (or whoever
took the shots) got bored after taping for a few moments and went inside to
watch the Simpsons? As for special effects, it doesn't seem such a tape would
be too hard to forge -- VHS format has extremely poor resolution; the scene was
dark so you couldn't really make anything out well enough to distinguish
between, say, a real outdoors scene and a little toy model (or even to tell
what objects, toy or real, might be *in* the scene); and to top it off, nothing
moved!

--
Kevin Cherkauer
[e-mail]

Disclaimer: The above opinions are solely the responsibility of my owners.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14034 alt.alien.visitors:13539 alt.religion.kibology:6515
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From: [e-mail] (The Beast of Shorts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Telepathy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Feb 93 18:57:59 GMT
Organization: Numb-minded Gerbil Collectors With Urine Samples
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark>
> >I do telepathy but I don't move things around.
>
> AHA!!  The TRUTH is REVEALED!  [...]
>
> Or did you mean you do telepathy but not telekinesis?

I think he meant that the mayonaise was bad and that he probably shouldn't
have eaten the whole jar like that.

But I could be wrong.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Ed Blasinski)
Subject: q
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1993 20:48:20 GMT
Lines: 1


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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gulf Breeze
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Warren Hughes)
Date: 16 Feb 93 07:59:00 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Warren Hughes)
Distribution: world
Organization: OUT OF SIGHT BBS, Auckland, New Zealand, 64-9-298-3805
Lines: 10

Hi, I am reading the Gulf Breeze book at the moment. I have missed the
start of the "Gulf Breeze Fiasco" messages. Could someone plse tell me,
should I believe this book, it is very interesting, would like to get
hold of the video that they took. Any information would be helpful...

Warren


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Real men dont yuse speel checkers.

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From: [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ETs Go Home.          1/2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Feb 93 22:09:00 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard)
Organization: Almac BBS Ltd. [phone]
Lines: 149


This is an excerpt from, or more rightly an appendix to, the
channelings from the Sun God by Timothy H. Smith. I make no claims,
so don't bother coming to beat up on me if you don't like it :-) I
realise that this might be anathema to the likes of P.Nelson, but feel
that it falls well within the remit of this newsgroup, which after
all is alt.alien.visitors and not comp.send.live.alien.or.be.damned
Enjoy!

==========================================================================

[this is the Sun God talking here, the date refers to the date of
channelling]

          Negative Extraterrestrials In Underground Camp In Mexico
                              November 16, 1992

  I have previously mentioned the ET's that are resident in the country
  called Mexico. I will give more details on these.  There is a place in a
  secluded part of Mexico that has many natural underground caverns and
  caves.  The negative ET's have the technology for locating underground
  resources including openings such as these.  They also have the ability
  to excavate using their own methods.  This they did to a particular
  site.  They decided to use this as their base camp for a large region of
  the Earth. I am referring of course to those extraterrestrials of a
  physical nature.  These in particular have had a history of living
  underground, so they adapted very quickly to this environment.

  The initial excursions to this area would have been seen by the local
  populace.  However, the governments of Mexico and the US collaberated
  with these ET's to secure the area so as to permit their movement in and
  out of these campsites.

  As you may well guess, the motives of those involved were dictated by
  their desire to exert control over the people.  Tom and others have many
  channelings detailing this.  But this particular location is used as a
  living place for the ET's and many humans as well.  The humans are
  working very close with these ET's in various capacities, but it is all
  of a negative and harmful nature to the Earth and humankind.

  This particular underground facility is a laboratory and a factory of
  sorts.  There is much experimentation that goes on here.  Many of the
  abductees are brought here and used by the negative ET's and humans.
  Many of your current viruses are discovered and tried from this
  location.  Many humans have unwillingly given their life for the
  experiments.  The ET's have other uses as well, as they are trying to
  save parts of their own life systems.  They are using human and animal
  experiments to this end.

  Your government has agreements with those from space to be given certain
  technologies.  The technologies are, in turn, being reapplied for use on
  Earth. The ET's are also "playing" with your government.  They do not
  wish to give them full control over some powerful systems, for they fear
  their use against themselves by your government.  So they introduce
  elements or minor systems to appease the humans.  There is also some work
  being done on craft adaptations.  Although this is done at other
  locations, parts of the assembly and training are accomplished at the
  Mexico location.

  This is an overview.  Remember, all that is done at this and other
  locations, is done in a non loving way.  The vibrations from the area in
  Mexico are creating many harmful affects on the Earth. The Earth does not
  want these harmful vibrations to continue.  So, the Earth and I will work
  together to cleanse these areas of this negativity.

  As I said, there are negative ET's and humans in an underground
  encampment in Mexico.  There purpose is to create control systems and the
  accessories for such a system.  They thrive on fear from others.  When
  someone is brought to them for the experiments and they are in great
  physical stress and emotional fear, it draws others within the camp to a
  close proximity of the fearful vibrations.

  These negative ET's thrive on fear displayed by those being experimented
  on.  It is like a special treat being brought to them.  They do not
  literally eat the individuals but the fearful vibrations produced by them
  are nourishment for the ET's. Of course they are in the physical and they
  have other physical nourishment as well.

  Another reason for the existence of these ET encampments is to serve as
  receiving and relay stations for the movement in and out of the planet.
  It is easier for them to communicate in a physical way when others know
  their whereabouts.  This in and of itself is not all that important, but
  it is another advantage for them to have those underground encampments.
  Mind you, they would remain on the Earth's surface if there was no chance
  of their being discovered.  There are some activities on the surface in
  other areas, including one site in the US. But even there most of the
  activity is beneath the Earth.


  The Earth has allowed all of this because this is a zone of free will.
  The Earth has not appreciated the harmful vibrations from these places,
  anymore than she does from the human population. I will say that the
  intense vibrations from the negative ET's in these locations are many
  times greater than that of the general human population/ This is because
  in their own way, the ET's are at a higher vibration. This is not
  necessarily a higher positive vibration, but it is a higher vibration.
  Consequently, the harmful effects from these are felt even more. It
  is magnified many times, relative to the human vibration.

  I can tell of the smallest detail of what occurs within these camp
  enclosures, and what is their physically.  What purpose would be served?
  None. You only need to know of their existence and the fact that they are
  not there in the best interest of humanity and Earth.

  You should also be advised that the negative forces have human agents who
  provide support and liason.  Some of these have incarnated in the usual
  way.  Others are what you would term "hybrids", who are part human and
  part their race of beings.  There are also other humans assisting with
  the efforts.  These have been subjected to intense mind control, and
  believe they are doing the right thing.  Of course these are just as
  responsible for themself as are all others.

  Their are thousands of government workers or agents who do the "bidding"
  of the negative ET's. In one sense they are no different than Tom or any
  other teacher of the truths.  However, one set of vibrations is positive
  and working to serve humankind, the Earth and the All. The others are
  self seekers and employ methods that meet their own objectives.  The dark
  forces use whatever means necessary to serve their self interests.

  This is not intended to be a dissertation on negative ET's. There are
  many good channelings and other information available for these.  It is
  my intent at this time to highlight that there are negative forces among
  you, and they are working in ways that would shock most people.  Included
  in this is the behavior of your own government.  Naturally each of you
  has the ability and power to overcome and, even redirect your energies,
  to completely offset the harm that is being done.

  I have told these forces to leave the planet because the Earth has chosen
  another path and does not want them here.  Those who remain will realize
  the consequences of their negative vibrations upon the Earth. Many or
  perhaps all of those [ET's] in the physical will make their transition.
  This will be accomplished through the Earth changes I have already
  given.  Those who remain and escape the physical Earth changes will feel
  the direct energies of the Earth and I. These energies will create
  certain stresses within their bodies.  They are not equipped to counter
  or handle these types of energies.  This in turn will create certain
  fatal ailments.  I have asked all to leave, or to remain in a positive
  and loving way.  They have been warned and have had the opportunity to
  depart without harmful effects.  Those who are now here in the physical,
  will soon be feeling the effects of what I have spoken.  For those who
  are of a negative vibration but do not choose to remain in a physical
  form, I tell you to leave and not to visit the Earth.  Your harmful
  vibrations are not wanted by the Earth. Therefore, you are subject to the
  same directed energies as those presently here.  These energies will
  indeed make it most uncomfortable for you.  You, too, are no longer
>>> Continued to next message
---
 . SLMR 2.1a #112 . Aale Aale Aale, .i .i .i!

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From: [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ETs Go Home.          2/2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Feb 93 22:09:00 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Andy Liddiard)
Organization: Almac BBS Ltd. [phone]
Lines: 21

>>> Continued from previous message
  welcome on this planet.  Leave and do not return.

  I love each of you and I love the Infinite Creator of all things.

                              The Sun God
==========================================================================

The rest of the text runs to 17Kb, concerning the Sun, Creator and
the impending Earth changes if we don't stop crapping all over the
planet. The general points made seem entirely reasonable; however, I
don't know if copyright permits a complete posting - and anyway,
it's more alt.new.age than a.a.v.

TTFN

 Andy ~ london ~ uk                        [e-mail]
                                   [e-mail]
---
 . SLMR 2.1a #112 . Aale Aale Aale, .i .i .i!

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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Sackatchewan Sasquatch.
Date: 16 Feb 1993 01:13:53 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:
>Dear Friends and Neighbors: One of my friends from Canada informed
>my that Sackatchewan is a corruption of the words Sasquatch Haven.
>John Winston

You gotta go somewhere,
When you die
So why not see the world
Through Sasquatch eyes!

Sasquatch Heaven,
Where Sasquatch go
To get away from housewives
And drunk UFO's
Sasquatch Heaven
Is a lot...
like Mississauga.

If you're bad,
You go to hell!
The Sasquatch will sit on you,
And you'll end up on the front cover of Weekly World News next to the Bat Baby!

Sasquatch Heaven,
In the Great White North,
Where they drink lots of beer,
And they program in FORTH.
Sasquatch Heaven,
Is full of dead...
Sasquatchen.


Mark

"Papa don't preach!  I'm going to bite the nipple off my Sasquatch!"
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:13545 sci.skeptic:39025
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From: [e-mail] (L GENE BATTIN)
Subject: Re: UFOs and time.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: VENUS.IUCF.INDIANA.EDU
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution:  world
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1993 01:33:24 GMT
Lines: 66

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Michael Saleeba [Zik]) writes...

>[e-mail] writes:
>
>>  "UFOs are not space ships but the angles of death who gather the souls of
                                      ^^^^^^
>>the dead and transport them to heaven." JW don't quote me on that statement.
>
>Just couldn't help myself Johnf :-)

Wonder if these are right angles, or perhaps obtuse angles?  Wonder if they're
as obtuse as Johnf? ;-)

>
>Someone was commenting the other day about how unfair it is that UFO
>people are regarded as "kooks". With stuff like this floating around
>is it any surprise?
>
>I